Off Topic No words...only tears...

[LuisDiazgamechanger]

When security is tight, terrorists are not dumb they are unlikely to strike then. When people relax. Currently attack is imminent "CRITICAL".
They are unlikely to attack now, but they must not be taken for granted.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Don't agree at all.

It's a short term measure that is reacting to the heightened security threat.

There's a couple of very large events this weekend, notably the Cup Final and The Radio 1 Big Weekend (not that far from me as it happens) it'd be criminal to not massively increase security at both in the light of the this weeks atrocity, and using the armed forces to supplement the Police is simply efficient use of resource imo.

I think it is necessary but mostly a gesture as it will make the majority feel ok.

It is not like NI where muslims will be targeted by guys in helicopters and landies busting in doors

However equally it is not going to aid anything much as the cops moved off those duties were basically standing about so they aint going to be stellar investigators etc.

The real lesson is anyone who left this country as a Muslim and went to any dodgy country should probably be picked up on thier return. Its a freaking huge red flag. IMO you should need to apply for permission to go to any one of 5/6 countries where isis can recruit. train and pass on knowledge

This guy went to Libya, learned how to do what he did, flew back in and sauntered through security.

IMO you should need an exit via to go to turkey, syria, iraq, libya etc etc.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

When security is tight, terrorists are not dumb they are unlikely to strike then. When people relax. Currently attack is imminent "CRITICAL".
They are unlikely to attack now, but they must not be taken for granted.

Basically all it screams to me is Oh we thought we were on top of it but obviously we are not.

clearly theres a couple guys running about hiding and the cops are saying they will prob suicide rather than give up when we catch up to them.

same thing happened after paris in belgium etc.

Oh we ****ed up. lets wave a red flag showing a threat level to appear to know whats going on.

Its the same as this "cobra" ****e the pm office trots out each time. Its to look in control when in fact they are not and the press can talk that stuff up to sooth the masses.

How much of skys or BBC coverage was May waffling on of them hammering on about cobra?

 

[astro]

I think it is necessary but mostly a gesture as it will make the majority feel ok.

It is not like NI where muslims will be targeted by guys in helicopters and landies busting in doors

However equally it is not going to aid anything much as the cops moved off those duties were basically standing about so they aint going to be stellar investigators etc.

The real lesson is anyone who left this country as a Muslim and went to any dodgy country should probably be picked up on thier return. Its a freaking huge red flag. IMO you should need to apply for permission to go to any one of 5/6 countries where isis can recruit. train and pass on knowledge

This guy went to Libya, learned how to do what he did, flew back in and sauntered through security.

IMO you should need an exit via to go to turkey, syria, iraq, libya etc etc.

So he applies for a £100 or so visa, writes "Purpose of trip: visit grandparents", and then what?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

So he applies for a £100 or so visa, writes "Purpose of trip: visit grandparents", and then what?

then you "severely vet" the guy who wants to get said visa.

Its basically far too easy right now. if you put off a few dozen or they try pull a fast one and head to europe then vanish then you've gorunds to bang the guy up after.

they WERE running off to play soliders and get themselves some slaves and money in syria when it was going for them.

Now they are going over and coming back cos its too hard to be a fighter for isis when the bombs are raining down.

Again it all comes back to this

1. no country is will to roll tanks over these guys and put the fear back into them to keep their heads down. not one is willing to put troops in. France and Uk have perfect grounds to declare war and go do that

2. while it was someone else's problem and guys were slipping out to go be isis warriors nobody gave a toss really. let them go get killed... oh wait look they are almost to bagdad.. time to drop bombs.


We stink and solving problems cos we fight over who gets the power after. russia and al asad or another iraq mess so we let the place fester and it all comes back on us as poor refugees or idiotic cowards like this guy. Then the refugees suffer more and the cycle goes on.

 

[DirtyFrank]

I think it is necessary but mostly a gesture as it will make the majority feel ok.

It is not like NI where muslims will be targeted by guys in helicopters and landies busting in doors

However equally it is not going to aid anything much as the cops moved off those duties were basically standing about so they aint going to be stellar investigators etc.

The real lesson is anyone who left this country as a Muslim and went to any dodgy country should probably be picked up on thier return. Its a freaking huge red flag. IMO you should need to apply for permission to go to any one of 5/6 countries where isis can recruit. train and pass on knowledge

This guy went to Libya, learned how to do what he did, flew back in and sauntered through security.

IMO you should need an exit via to go to turkey, syria, iraq, libya etc etc.

You're thinking of what Operation Banner in NI turned into not what it was initially.

Remember troops were sent into NI under exactly the same guise. To give Police a break and free up resources. It was also supposed to be for a very limited time to meet very specific events.

How it was prolonged and became a counter productive measure is a matter of record.

Look, as it stands IS does not have the same set up as the PIRA in terms of structure, Arms in place and organised numbers for that type of sustained campaign.

But the PIRA didn't either at the time of troop deployment in NI.

If they are simply going to be used to stand around big buildings stations etc in city centres, fair enough. As long as they are never used to support community policing or in and around residential areas.

I agree on the returning people. We all are asked to accept interference with our freedom of movement due to the terrorist threat. Yet this doesn't apply to people travelling and returning from terrorist hot spots. Don't get me wrong, again due to the history here, general internment is a very bad idea but I don't see why if someone wants to travel to say Syria or Libya for non official reasons they are told they will be held for 3 to 6 months in a holding area on return. They don't have to go after all.

Of the 800 people that went out to these countries only 100 were detained for any time. Personally I think holding for 3 to 6 months allows intelligence services to back track where they went and who they met.

Look at the info they have on the bombers travelling and contacts only 3 days after the event.

You would also save resources... 3 dozen police or intelligence officers to put someone under surveillance? If he'd been detained on return for 6 months the bombing wouldn't have happened.

 

[LuisDiazgamechanger]

Manchester Arena was supposed to be a focus point of the security agents on that day knowing that there was a big event. Security agents bottled it.

 

[DirtyFrank]

The critical upgrade could be for any reason.. They found evidence of a larger plot..they found evidence more than one device was made but didn't find those devices etc..

 

[BobbyD]

then you "severely vet" the guy who wants to get said visa.

Its basically far too easy right now. if you put off a few dozen or they try pull a fast one and head to europe then vanish then you've gorunds to bang the guy up after.

they WERE running off to play soliders and get themselves some slaves and money in syria when it was going for them.

Now they are going over and coming back cos its too hard to be a fighter for isis when the bombs are raining down.

Again it all comes back to this

1. no country is will to roll tanks over these guys and put the fear back into them to keep their heads down. not one is willing to put troops in. France and Uk have perfect grounds to declare war and go do that

2. while it was someone else's problem and guys were slipping out to go be isis warriors nobody gave a toss really. let them go get killed... oh wait look they are almost to bagdad.. time to drop bombs.


We stink and solving problems cos we fight over who gets the power after. russia and al asad or another iraq mess so we let the place fester and it all comes back on us as poor refugees or idiotic cowards like this guy. Then the refugees suffer more and the cycle goes on.

I know it might just the news coming out but the news is reporting the guy was on their radar.

What the issue is that we as a society are split on civil liberties which at the moment errs more on the side of liberal. We don't believe that we can just pick people and bang them in prison/interrogate them for offences we think they may have committed (who here is outraged at guantanamo bay, is it the incarceration or the torturing or both?) yet at the same time these guys can go out doing what they are doing without anyone having hard evidence on them.

By the time they act it might be too late and no amount of monitoring (resourcing against number of suspected terrorists) will be 100% preventative.

Either we accept that we can just pick people up and hold them and hope that does not antagonise communities and create my extremists / is abused as a tool by the government to stop who they want or we acknowledge we want to be a civilised and liberal society and hope that these sort of incidents are minimised.

Personally i think we are soft as hell

 

[Tobes]

You simply can't cover ever eventuality from a security perspective to guard against these sorts of attacks.

This one, didn't even involve the bomber buying a ticket and being inside the event, merely him mingling with the leaving crowd.

Shopping centres, buses, tubes, crowds leaving a sporting event, festivals, etc etc etc, how can you realistically cover off stopping a single person mingling with the crowd strapped with explosives?

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Despite this awful crime, children are still far more likely to be killed by their own parents' poor driving than a terrorist

Soldiers to hold guns to mums' heads while they do the school run?

Behave Astro. You're straying into the territory of Der Kaiser on General Chat, and Sisu's old stomping ground. Bad things happen: sometimes we react well, sometimes we don't. 'They' don't control every event - you're just replacing an omnipotent God with an omnipotent government there: the same 'omnipotent' government that called a referendum they comfortably expected to win.

I myself have said that school pick ups are now a worrying and vulnerable target, but nobody is suggesting the solution is to swap the 4 x 4 for a Churchill tank. As Tobes says, there's many large public events now due, and we have to believe the security services that one means two in these events - remember that there was another attempt just a fortnight after 7/7. It's either these reasonable reactions or, to pander to the Katie Hopkins lynch mob, concentration camps, yellow crescents to be worn on coats and mass deportations.

The level of response may be debatable, but it's nuts to suggest the government have manufactured this or, given the choice, they're cynically manipulating it, because if they were they'd be brazenly stirring the UKKKIP pot and promising all the over-the-top measures that would, sadly, sweep them to power. Sensibly, even in this populist age, they're not.

 

[DirtyFrank]

You simply can't cover ever eventuality from a security perspective to guard against these sorts of attacks.

This one, didn't even involve the bomber buying a ticket and being inside the event, merely him mingling with the leaving crowd.

Shopping centres, buses, tubes, crowds leaving a sporting event, festivals, etc etc etc, how can you realistically cover off stopping a single person mingling with the crowd strapped with explosives?

Which is why he (and anyone else) should have been told that if he insisted on going to Libya (& any other state the govt decides is a terrorist risk) he would be detained for 6 months on his return until security services were satisfied they'd found out where he was and who he met.

If he refuses he doesn't get to go and is red flagged for heavy surveillance.

Oh you'll get whinging about how they're going out to see their dying granny. Well sorry if it's that important you'll accept detainment afterwards...if you haven't met up with dodgey ****ers then a security follow up won't take long will it?

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

You simply can't cover ever eventuality from a security perspective to guard against these sorts of attacks.

This one, didn't even involve the bomber buying a ticket and being inside the event, merely him mingling with the leaving crowd.

Shopping centres, buses, tubes, crowds leaving a sporting event, festivals, etc etc etc, how can you realistically cover off stopping a single person mingling with the crowd strapped with explosives?

I remember a security briefing we were given (and I had to disseminate) after 7/7. All reasonable steps and suggestions, but fundamentally, with rail travel, think of this: most stations are now unstaffed, so most passengers board trains without any checks or even opportunity to search people anyway. Even where barriers exist, say like at Lime St or Leeds, how do you stop people walking onto the crowded concourse on a Friday afternoon?

Don't get me wrong, it is sensible to do what you can, but you can't do everything.

 

[Tobes]

I remember a security briefing we were given (and I had to disseminate) after 7/7. All reasonable steps and suggestions, but fundamentally, with rail travel, think of this: most stations are now unstaffed, so most passengers board trains without any checks or even opportunity to search people anyway. Even where barriers exist, say like at Lime St or Leeds, how do you stop people walking onto the crowded concourse on a Friday afternoon?

Don't get me wrong, it is sensible to do what you can, but you can't do everything.

Exactly.

Take Saturday as an example, they could have a security cordon half a mile from the stadium stopping an searching anyone who entered it. However, come the end of the game a random could simply stroll up to Wembley Central tube station and join the crowd queuing up outside, not even in the station itself.

 

[DragonPhilljack]

He's a dickhead, but we'll leave that there.

What happens every time there's an IS inspired atrocity, people like that come out and attack Islam in general. Muslims in the main don't identify with these people nor their beliefs, but there'll no doubt be race hate incidents aimed at Muslims in the wake of this, which are inspired by comments like his....

It's cowardly arse holes like you that are afraid to speak up regarding this murderous ideology, sound bites that will return again and again as more children in the future are blown to bits, our politicians have sold us down the river, Islam is not compatible with western values, and multiculturalism has been a mitigating disaster, the sooner nuggets like you wake up, and face the reality the better, Islam is the enemy, jihad is on our streets, Muslim gangs raping white children and girls, and now blowing them up, and on top of all this we have dickheads like you, burying your miserable head in the sand, you disgust me......

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I know it might just the news coming out but the news is reporting the guy was on their radar.

What the issue is that we as a society are split on civil liberties which at the moment errs more on the side of liberal. We don't believe that we can just pick people and bang them in prison/interrogate them for offences we think they may have committed (who here is outraged at guantanamo bay, is it the incarceration or the torturing or both?) yet at the same time these guys can go out doing what they are doing without anyone having hard evidence on them.

By the time they act it might be too late and no amount of monitoring (resourcing against number of suspected terrorists) will be 100% preventative.

Either we accept that we can just pick people up and hold them and hope that does not antagonise communities and create my extremists / is abused as a tool by the government to stop who they want or we acknowledge we want to be a civilised and liberal society and hope that these sort of incidents are minimised.

Personally i think we are soft as hell

thats fair. I'm just saying we need a serious hurdle and system of interview to get a visa to travel out to these countries now.

Its like this..... we all put up with shoes off in airport right?

well.. sorry but some folks are blowing up kids now after travelling to libya and back so you now need ot clear this to be able to go there and get back in here.... and not just Muslims ether.. EVERYONE.

IMo its a lot easier track and infiltrate internet recruiting and teaching than it is to stop a lunatic jihadist to travel to libya to do a training camp in bomb making and use in effect household items to construct his device.

the only way to stop him once he was on his run was to prevent him getting back into country..... not easy so better stop them travelling out day one.

the Us visa i did about 2 months ago was 3 times as long as it was 2 years ago and they take all sorts of info.. I had to go do it

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Exactly.

Take Saturday as an example, they could have a security cordon half a mile from the stadium stopping an searching anyone who entered it. However, come the end of the game a random could simply stroll up to Wembley Central tube station and join the crowd queuing up outside, not even in the station itself.

you are right. his intent was kill as many as possible. same as paris so he was detonating anywhere he could with the max crowd.

the only place to stop him was at his front roof with a snipers bullet... once he started his end run at it.

 

[Tobes]

It's cowardly arse holes like you that are afraid to speak up regarding this murderous ideology, sound bites that will return again and again as more children in the future are blown to bits, our politicians have sold us down the river, Islam is not compatible with western values, and multiculturalism has been a mitigating disaster, the sooner nuggets like you wake up, and face the reality the better, Islam is the enemy, jihad is on our streets, Muslim gangs raping white children and girls, and now blowing them up, and on top of all this we have dickheads like you, burying your miserable head in the sand, you disgust me......

Cowardly? I'd love to see you say that to my face, you knuckle dragging buffoon.

Islam isn't the 'enemy' you stupid oaf, Islam itself isn't a religion of terror, the vast majority of Muslims don't even recognise the twisted version of Islam that these politically motivated ****heads hide behind.

The issue is thick ****s like you, who tar an entire community with the same brush and thus incite rate hate incidents that always follow these atrocities.
It's akin to labelling Catholicism as being to blame for the IRA bombings. The internet has given racist gobshites like you a window to the World, beforehand you'd be limited to sharing your bollocks with other cretins in the local alehouse. I bet you voted for Brexit an'all you dumb ****.

 

[astro]

It's cowardly arse holes like you that are afraid to speak up regarding this murderous ideology, sound bites that will return again and again as more children in the future are blown to bits, our politicians have sold us down the river, Islam is not compatible with western values, and multiculturalism has been a mitigating disaster, the sooner nuggets like you wake up, and face the reality the better, Islam is the enemy, jihad is on our streets, Muslim gangs raping white children and girls, and now blowing them up, and on top of all this we have dickheads like you, burying your miserable head in the sand, you disgust me......

Nope @Tobes is sound and you're mental

 

[DragonPhilljack]

Cowardly? I'd love to see you say that to my face, you knuckle dragging buffoon.

Islam isn't the 'enemy' you stupid oaf, Islam itself isn't a religion of terror, the vast majority of Muslims don't even recognise the twisted version of Islam that these politically motivated ****heads hide behind.

The issue is thick ****s like you, who tar an entire community with the same brush and thus incite rate hate incidents that always follow these atrocities.
It's akin to labelling Catholicism as being to blame for the IRA bombings. The internet has given racist gobshites like you a window to the World, beforehand you'd be limited to sharing your bollocks with other cretins in the local alehouse. I bet you voted for Brexit an'all you dumb ****.

Talk is cheap, clearly your children were not blown to bits by this Islamic Ideology, Where is the condemnation from the Muslim community ? Kahn? and by the way you thick muppet, ISLAM is a religion, not a race, so shove your unintelligent racists labels up your fat arse, your simpleton, clearly thick as ****............