Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[Diego]

Not at all...I agree with you..each side has made grand claims...EU the dictator! EU the benevolent rights and prosperity giver! It's Horseshit.

I was merely disputing that the EU "gifted" us all our rights...it didn't. 1000 years of a evolving govt system and 100+ years of a domestic union and rights movements did that. I just find it annoying giving the applause to those that didn't do it. By all means influenced by ideas from Revolutions on mainland Europe and the US...what the EU and Ecourt does is protect those rights and makes it more difficult to remove them. A domestic bill of rights would do the same however.

One side says the mega companies will bend us to their will through the big bad tories without the protection of the EU despite the fact those companies are all telling us to remain. Which is why I asked why would they want us to remain if the EU protected us from them? Answer is it doesn't; it does the opposite....is that a big enough reason to leave? I didn't say that...but just making **** up to feel better when it's blatantly not true is just silly.

I've already commented on the idiocy of isolationism in a previous post. It's never worked well in modern history. But there is a difference between isolationism and disagreeing with the level of integration...unfortunately due to Camerons scam negotiation isn't giving the people a choice of "what the EU should be" it's stay in same ****e treaty or leap into unknown.

That said...the Eunion the British people voted for is not remotely recognizable to the one they will vote for next month. If remain wins then the democratic process has been played out: the British people will have stated they are happy with an increased bureaucracy and more devolved powers than initially signed up to. Then that's fine.

It's the inherent weakness of the Brexit campaign that they can not point to a post exit vision of the future....I don't even mean economically as that's pointless...nobody can predict more than six months ahead as has been shown. I mean they can't go off and negotiate theoretical treaties with other countries and present them as the alternative.

What they could have done was show how they would spend the money we send and receive back...show how internal running of the funds would result in less bureaucracy...how they'd protect or improve on the current EU schemes regarding Agriculture, Fishing, R&D etc.

But they haven't. And because of this they will lose. Why do you think Remain uses the phrase "a leap into the dark" ad nauseum? People unless forced will always stick with the devil they know. They will never pick uncertainty....

The racism or xenophobic argument is a side issue...yes some Brexiteers are clearly racists. But Remain has all too often labelled anyone with genuine concerns about population movement and integration and how it can be handled by the domestic govt as swivelled eyed little Englanders....it's why labour has seen a significant amount of support shift to Ukip.

Unfortunately I think the only effect of this referendum will be to cement the general populations view that our politicians don't give two shots about our views...think we are too dumb to be trusted whole they have their childish power struggles...more detachment from the political class.

This phrase almost makes me a little sick, what do these people think we had before the EU, or was that the dark ages to most kids?

 

[Master Yoda]

Don't really want to get into the debate but...

From the perspective of a lawyer at a commercial law firm... we should not leave... from the perspective of someone who has studied the internal market and jurisprudence of the EU... we should not leave... as someone who has helped campaigns on human rights issues... we should not leave... as someone who is from Northern Ireland... we should not leave.

The arguments for leave I've seen are mostly illiterate in their economic, legal or geopolitical awareness. Not to say they aren't valid but unfortunately EU membership is a complicated, vast behemoth that you have to study to appreciate even a part of.

What are the main 'concerns'? Turkey? Not a real issue. Calais? Leaving will make it worse... Democracy? It's never been more than an ideal.

At the end of the day, the right wing, free market, profit driven money counting folk should be all for the EU.... because the EU has never flexed its muscle like it did to possibly the most socialist, equality driven party elected in Europe... in Greece.

EDIT: Got to add... the EU guarantees worker's rights. Social rights. It's incorporating human rights via the ECHR as we speak. Who do you want to trust with your rights?

A British government? A Tory government? With their laughing stock of a 'bill of rights' proposal that has been beaten from pillar to post by anyone with two braincells?

 

[Diego]

Don't really want to get into the debate but...

From the perspective of a lawyer at a commercial law firm... we should not leave... from the perspective of someone who has studied the internal market and jurisprudence of the EU... we should not leave... as someone who has helped campaigns on human rights issues... we should not leave... as someone who is from Northern Ireland... we should not leave.

The arguments for leave I've seen are mostly illiterate in their economic, legal or geopolitical awareness. Not to say they aren't valid but unfortunately EU membership is a complicated, vast behemoth that you have to study to appreciate even a part of.

What are the main 'concerns'? Turkey? Not a real issue. Calais? Leaving will make it worse... Democracy? It's never been more than an ideal.

At the end of the day, the right wing, free market, profit driven money counting folk should be all for the EU.... because the EU has never flexed its muscle like it did to possibly the most socialist, equality driven party elected in Europe... in Greece.

EDIT: Got to add... the EU guarantees worker's rights. Social rights. It's incorporating human rights via the ECHR as we speak. Who do you want to trust with your rights?

A British government? A Tory government? With their laughing stock of a 'bill of rights' proposal that has been beaten from pillar to post by anyone with two braincells?

What human rights issues do you think we would have neglected without being part of the EU? (at this point I feel I must point out that some people give up these rights by ceasing to act human).
Turkey, Calais etc are not a major concern to most, we will accept a certain amount of the people from those places anyway, the difference is we will be able to decide our own limits (and with Turkey, who will not be a drain on our own infrastructure).
If we remain in the EU we will be expected/forced to accept the Euro within the next 5-10 years, this is a failing currency which if we had been a part of in 2008 we would be in a similar position to Greece now.
There is very little reason to stay in the EU, It was originally called "the common market" but the world has shrunk/grown? since then and the up-coming markets are way outside the EU, we need to take the opportunity to trade with the whole world on our own terms.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Don't really want to get into the debate but...

From the perspective of a lawyer at a commercial law firm... we should not leave... from the perspective of someone who has studied the internal market and jurisprudence of the EU... we should not leave... as someone who has helped campaigns on human rights issues... we should not leave... as someone who is from Northern Ireland... we should not leave.

The arguments for leave I've seen are mostly illiterate in their economic, legal or geopolitical awareness. Not to say they aren't valid but unfortunately EU membership is a complicated, vast behemoth that you have to study to appreciate even a part of.

What are the main 'concerns'? Turkey? Not a real issue. Calais? Leaving will make it worse... Democracy? It's never been more than an ideal.

At the end of the day, the right wing, free market, profit driven money counting folk should be all for the EU.... because the EU has never flexed its muscle like it did to possibly the most socialist, equality driven party elected in Europe... in Greece.

EDIT: Got to add... the EU guarantees worker's rights. Social rights. It's incorporating human rights via the ECHR as we speak. Who do you want to trust with your rights?

A British government? A Tory government? With their laughing stock of a 'bill of rights' proposal that has been beaten from pillar to post by anyone with two braincells?

But it needs people like you then to explain it to those that haven't studied as best as possible in detail...maybe not on this forum lol...

You've just given the headlines and then basically said..."but you wouldn't really understand"

That is exactly what the political elite and campaigners have done so far...pat on the head and say "leave it to those who know and just take my word for it"

That leaves people making decisions based on emotion and personality...which is where both camps have dragged it down to.

That's not to say you aren't trustworthy mate...but a little trust needs to be given to people if asked to vote on something so important.

The Remain camps claims have been so increasingly exaggerated and apocalyptic to become parody; that when they say things that are actually true with no detail, it just gets thrown into the lies box . Its shows a fear that mystifies me. The Brexiteers can't put forward an alternative because it doesn't exist until after the fact. It is a serious weight around their neck. This should have been so much easier for Remain but they went into the soundbite battle instead.

Remain will win but the way it went about it will cause a lot of damage to the relationships internally.

 

[Diego]

But it needs people like you then to explain it to those that haven't studied as best as possible in detail...maybe not on this forum lol...

You've just given the headlines and then basically said..."but you wouldn't really understand"

That is exactly what the political elite and campaigners have done so far...pat on the head and say "leave it to those who know and just take my word for it"

That leaves people making decisions based on emotion and personality...which is where both camps have dragged it down to.

That's not to say you aren't trustworthy mate...but a little trust needs to be given to people if asked to vote on something so important.

The Remain camps claims have been so increasingly exaggerated and apocalyptic to become parody; that when they say things that are actually true with no detail, it just gets thrown into the lies box . Its shows a fear that mystifies me. The Brexiteers can't put forward an alternative because it doesn't exist until after the fact. It is a serious weight around their neck. This should have been so much easier for Remain but they went into the soundbite battle instead.

Remain will win but the way it went about it will cause a lot of damage to the relationships internally.

We did ok for hundreds of years before 1975, it is not a dark uncharted territory for us, that is just a shot to get the younger population scared

 

[saintanton]

We did ok for hundreds of years before 1975, it is not a dark uncharted territory for us, that is just a shot to get the younger population scared

This is hanging on to history even more than LFC.
The world has moved on, do you think you can turn back the clock to 1975?
You can't say we were alright then so we'll be alright again, that's far too simplistic. You need to come up with a better argument than that, tbh.

 

[Diego]

This is hanging on to history even more than LFC.
The world has moved on, do you think you can turn back the clock to 1975?
You can't say we were alright then so we'll be alright again, that's far too simplistic. You need to come up with a better argument than that, tbh.

Exactly, the world has moved on and there are many expanding markets way beyond the EU, who is living in the past?

 

[saintanton]

Not at all...I agree with you..each side has made grand claims...EU the dictator! EU the benevolent rights and prosperity giver! It's Horseshit.

I was merely disputing that the EU "gifted" us all our rights...it didn't. 1000 years of a evolving govt system and 100+ years of a domestic union and rights movements did that. I just find it annoying giving the applause to those that didn't do it. By all means influenced by ideas from Revolutions on mainland Europe and the US...what the EU and Ecourt does is protect those rights and makes it more difficult to remove them. A domestic bill of rights would do the same however.

One side says the mega companies will bend us to their will through the big bad tories without the protection of the EU despite the fact those companies are all telling us to remain. Which is why I asked why would they want us to remain if the EU protected us from them? Answer is it doesn't; it does the opposite....is that a big enough reason to leave? I didn't say that...but just making **** up to feel better when it's blatantly not true is just silly.

I've already commented on the idiocy of isolationism in a previous post. It's never worked well in modern history. But there is a difference between isolationism and disagreeing with the level of integration...unfortunately due to Camerons scam negotiation isn't giving the people a choice of "what the EU should be" it's stay in same ****e treaty or leap into unknown.

That said...the Eunion the British people voted for is not remotely recognizable to the one they will vote for next month. If remain wins then the democratic process has been played out: the British people will have stated they are happy with an increased bureaucracy and more devolved powers than initially signed up to. Then that's fine.

It's the inherent weakness of the Brexit campaign that they can not point to a post exit vision of the future....I don't even mean economically as that's pointless...nobody can predict more than six months ahead as has been shown. I mean they can't go off and negotiate theoretical treaties with other countries and present them as the alternative.

What they could have done was show how they would spend the money we send and receive back...show how internal running of the funds would result in less bureaucracy...how they'd protect or improve on the current EU schemes regarding Agriculture, Fishing, R&D etc.

But they haven't. And because of this they will lose. Why do you think Remain uses the phrase "a leap into the dark" ad nauseum? People unless forced will always stick with the devil they know. They will never pick uncertainty....

The racism or xenophobic argument is a side issue...yes some Brexiteers are clearly racists. But Remain has all too often labelled anyone with genuine concerns about population movement and integration and how it can be handled by the domestic govt as swivelled eyed little Englanders....it's why labour has seen a significant amount of support shift to Ukip.

Unfortunately I think the only effect of this referendum will be to cement the general populations view that our politicians don't give two shots about our views...think we are too dumb to be trusted whole they have their childish power struggles...more detachment from the political class.

Not much to argue with there.
I agree especially with the last paragraph. Our politicians are using the whole debate as a political football to achieve their own personal ends with scant regard for the consequences (as ever).
Boris is playing politics with this in an attempt to wrest control of his party and should be thoroughly condemned for it.

We used to laugh at the Italians for having someone like Berlusconi in power, but just look at where we're heading. We're amazed at the possibility that Trump might make it to the White House yet we've got his Spittin Image puppet in with a chance of N0.10.
Nigel Farage is someone people should point and laugh at in the street yet he too has a hefty following.
This is a new nadir for British politics.

 

[saintanton]

Exactly, the world has moved on and there are many expanding markets way beyond the EU, who is living in the past?

No point in trying to argue with you.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

We did ok for hundreds of years before 1975, it is not a dark uncharted territory for us, that is just a shot to get the younger population scared

By that logic we need to leave NATO as we won at Crecy and Trafalgar.

 

[LuisDiazgamechanger]

IN and OUT supporters are scaring people with statistics that they cannot justify or prove.

You must log in or register to see images

There are benefits in staying in Europe, also there are benefits in leaving. Is Britain going to be better off if they leave or worse off?.
It is always difficult to predict the future. Great Storm of 1987: Michael Fish's 'white lie', is there going to be a storm one way or the
other. Who knows?

 

[carlthejackal]

We did ok for hundreds of years before 1975, it is not a dark uncharted territory for us, that is just a shot to get the younger population scared

This is not a strong argument if I may say so. We've been using antibiotics liberally with no problems for a very long time now. Why should we be more careful now? Because things have changed. My wife and I have been such good friends since 1996, So why will she not continue being friendly with me when we now go our separate ways? Because the relationship between us is now different to what it was when we met.

Yes, it is uncharted territory. We have never left the EU to then have to renegotiate terms with ex-partners. The argument goes: why will the likes of Germany not want to trade with us as they have a trade surplus in cars with us? And so on for France with their cheese and foods, Italy with their clothes etc etc. But then why in that new world would they as a block want to make it so smooth for Britain so that leaving the EU is seen as getting the best of both worlds? The more rational argument will go for tariffs, long protracted negotiations. The reality is exactly that this is indeed uncharted territory and we have no idea whether it could be dark or not.

 

[luvgonzo]

There are benefits in staying in Europe, also there benefits in leaving.

This is true so why leave?

Makes no sense to leave, we will not be better off and may be worse off. Lets keep it simple is there any huge advantage to leaving?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

What human rights issues do you think we would have neglected without being part of the EU? (at this point I feel I must point out that some people give up these rights by ceasing to act human).
Turkey, Calais etc are not a major concern to most, we will accept a certain amount of the people from those places anyway, the difference is we will be able to decide our own limits (and with Turkey, who will not be a drain on our own infrastructure).
If we remain in the EU we will be expected/forced to accept the Euro within the next 5-10 years, this is a failing currency which if we had been a part of in 2008 we would be in a similar position to Greece now.
There is very little reason to stay in the EU, It was originally called "the common market" but the world has shrunk/grown? since then and the up-coming markets are way outside the EU, we need to take the opportunity to trade with the whole world on our own terms.

Jesus wept.

Forced to accept the euro...

Come on! That is the biggest load I've heard yet.

 

[LuisDiazgamechanger]

Leading out campaingner (Boris Johnson) have a hidden agenda. He wants to be the next prime minister, the only
way he can get there is by humiliating David Cameron. Funny old world two friends becoming enemy in politics?.

 

[luvgonzo]

Leading out campaingner (Boris Johnson) have a hidden agenda. He wants to be the next prime minister

Hilarious and yet frightening stuff.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

The funny thing is labour have left the door wide open for the tories and mad Boris if he manages it

 

[DirtyFrank]

Leading out campaingner (Boris Johnson) have a hidden agenda. He wants to be the next prime minister, the only
way he can get there is by humiliating David Cameron. Funny old world two friends becoming enemy in politics?.

No such thing as friends in politics and these two have been politicians since they were 5 lol...

 

[DirtyFrank]

The funny thing is labour have left the door wide open for the tories and mad Boris if he manages it

Yes...both parties are in meltdown and the third party has all but disappeared.

It would be nice to think some sane people would group together and form a new party that actually represented people but it is the twitter age...common sense doesn't exist anymore...just reactionary thought.

I find it hilarious that the Internet was supposed to be the door to enlightenment uncontrolled by one govt....more like the new opium for the masses....

 

[DirtyFrank]

We did ok for hundreds of years before 1975, it is not a dark uncharted territory for us, that is just a shot to get the younger population scared

That's a little inaccurate since in those hundreds of years we were a ruling monarchy who quite often had to bow down to the power of France, Spain etc. Not exactly independent from Europe lol.

Our time of glory was because we were ahead of the curve industrially...we are not anymore. To be in a position to dictate completely on your own terms you either need the resources to be self sufficient, (we don't) or control those resources outside of your territories..(we no longer do). And arguably not even the likes of the US or China have managed it completely.

Alternatively you need to provide something essential to others. We don't have that either...despite the claims of the financial services..

Where I will agree the EU is bad for us is the emerging technology sector. The red tape and competing interests of the union nations, while handcuffed together, thwarts technological innovation as a business...RHC is right that they provide money for R&D but it then goes outside Europe post development to more accepting markets to actually make money. This should have been our new industrialisation but we chose the "gambling on crack" that is Finance.

Is this a reason to leave? It could be a very good one if we had built the business model to go past universities and have it ready to go when we exit...but we haven't which means we would be playing catchup from a standing start against the Yanks and Asia.

Exiting successfully required long term planning BEFORE getting to the referendum point. If you had a govt that had been in power for ten years or two parties agreeing to exit that had driven our economy to be at run when the decision was made then yes I believe we would have been better off out. If we had specialised industry that forced the remaining EU and other states to sign positive treaties with us then fine; out would be better.

Problem is, that force of will wasn't there and to leave then say "right what shall we do now?" Would be very very risky.

But as I said earlier...stay/remain...the EU in its present form is going to collapse. Will it be more costly being part of the process but leading the rebuild of a better replacement? or sitting on the sidelines feeling the impact of the collapse but with no control? I really don't know.