Indeed we do but how is that particular stupidity a justification for handing any other policy over to unelected officials?
Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...
- Thread starter LuisDiazgamechanger
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Indeed we do but how is that particular stupidity a justification for handing any other policy over to unelected officials?
I agree the day they set it up they ****ed it by letting Italy Spain and Greece in.
I don't agree they have only that plough on option.
France is a communist enclave in all but name I reckon. They are so odd. So why give them all the voice?
As for the southern states.... they took the money now have to pay it back... they allowed all the corruption... That's their own problem.
The fact remains either we stand up and fight to fix it or walk away and let others decide
Which unelected officials.....
Civil servants across Britain are unelected too....
All the council of ministers are elected. Men's are elected.
The commissars (not a mistake btw) are elected by PMs sitting about bartering roles. That's about it.
The REAL power is Merkel and roland.. why are we not pushing our agenda... fear of skeptics in Britain probably.
They don't want to listen to us..they just want the money lol...but you are right..if you want to fix it that can only come from the inside..or come out and prepare for its collapse. Either one will cost us.....money.
It's going to fun either way...
Civil servants answer to our own elected officials theoretically...we have control 9f the make up of parliament ...theoretically.
We only have the power to elect a % of the representatives in Europe...a minority at that. Those European civil servants therfore only answer to a minority of our elected officials.
We set ourselves apart from the start rather than join the gang as a leader. ceeded power to Germany and France and never got it back...as you say even harder to do when half our side don't want a part of it at all.
Isolationism never works, never has.
I just can't see us reassert ing ourselves within the current set up...obviously not at all from outside of it completely.
Vote option 4 shake it all about and come down the Benteknofrog warehouse rave this bank holiday weekend is gona be carnage
and the rest pills and powders and shrooms, all the legal highs that got bought up last week DJteknoKlopp rumoured to be making a guest appearance on the decks as well tekno tekno tekno tekno unce unce unce unce unce
If we leave it will be a step into the unknown, part of me wants to vote leave just for the chaos. Sensible me thinks we should stay in, but the move towards a federal European state is very big brother. I also do not like the fact the bureaucrats who run the asylum are in the main unelected.
In what way?
Most of the people who really run our country- indeed the world- are unelected anyway.
Can't say I like the idea of chaos much either.
Politicians?
Tony Blair?
There seems to be a marked difference between the two parties in the referendum. The Tories are mostly in favour of leaving. Do they feel that their freedom to do what they want in government is being curtailed? Many of the workers recent rights and benefits have been given by the EU. We could safely say that left to their own, our government would not have given those.
So the constant complaint of "we have to govern ourselves and our parliament has to be able to pass its own laws without any interference from Brussels " is not actually a great motivation to vote leave for the workers. Are most of Westminster's laws for the benefit of the people ? Who also controls the power of the huge multinationals like Starbucks Google Facebook EBay etc and ensure they pay their fair share of tax? Not this government. Is it for lack of power or just lack of will?
One thing is certain: The workers tend to get more from the EU whilst the employers tend to get more from this government who favours fewer rules.
So the constant complaint of "we have to govern ourselves and our parliament has to be able to pass its own laws without any interference from Brussels " is not actually a great motivation to vote leave for the workers. Are most of Westminster's laws for the benefit of the people ? Who also controls the power of the huge multinationals like Starbucks Google Facebook EBay etc and ensure they pay their fair share of tax? Not this government. Is it for lack of power or just lack of will?
One thing is certain: The workers tend to get more from the EU whilst the employers tend to get more from this government who favours fewer rules.
Current figures for Tory Remain/Leave
164 Remain
137 Leave
29 Undecided.
Employment Rights Legislation...Passed by UK parliament.
1996 Employments Rights Act (Con Govt)
2008 Employment Rights Act ammendments. (Lab Govt)
This Govt hasn't made any ammendments to that act or 2008 ammendments other than Tribunal process.
If the people think Westminster's laws aren't for them they get to change that every 5 years.
Sovereignty and Democracy isn't something you give away to someone else because you don't trust a domestic political party.
As for Conglomerates/Multinationals? Almost to the one they've all came out to say we should stay in the EU...strange if they think they'd be better protected by Westminster or the current govt acting on its own free from Europe?
That's actually one of the main drawbacks of EU...it's miles deep legislation and red tape suit huge companies who can afford a team of lawyers who can find the loopholes and afford permanent lobbyists in the halls of power. It's anti competitive in that aspect which is against one of the main reasons it came into being.
164 Remain
137 Leave
29 Undecided.
Employment Rights Legislation...Passed by UK parliament.
1996 Employments Rights Act (Con Govt)
2008 Employment Rights Act ammendments. (Lab Govt)
This Govt hasn't made any ammendments to that act or 2008 ammendments other than Tribunal process.
If the people think Westminster's laws aren't for them they get to change that every 5 years.
Sovereignty and Democracy isn't something you give away to someone else because you don't trust a domestic political party.
As for Conglomerates/Multinationals? Almost to the one they've all came out to say we should stay in the EU...strange if they think they'd be better protected by Westminster or the current govt acting on its own free from Europe?
That's actually one of the main drawbacks of EU...it's miles deep legislation and red tape suit huge companies who can afford a team of lawyers who can find the loopholes and afford permanent lobbyists in the halls of power. It's anti competitive in that aspect which is against one of the main reasons it came into being.
This reads as though we were applying to join. We've had our one foot in the EU since 1975 - I haven't noticed a particularly dramatic loss of sovereignty since and the illusion of democracy remains as potent as ever.
The idea that we are somehow dictated to by someone we've willingly joined into an agreement with mystifies me.
Both sides can present anecdotal evidence to support their argument, but it's the overall picture that matters and I can see precious little advantage to being on the outside. All I see is whining about EU legislation, rather than any coherent plan for an improved life outside of it. It seems to me it just appeals to some outdated perception of isolationism and that we are somehow "better" than all those dirty foreigners.
It's no surprise that the likes of Boris and Farage are so against it, and the fact that they are betrays the nature and the level of the exit argument as far as I'm concerned.
Not at all...I agree with you..each side has made grand claims...EU the dictator! EU the benevolent rights and prosperity giver! It's Horseshit.
I was merely disputing that the EU "gifted" us all our rights...it didn't. 1000 years of a evolving govt system and 100+ years of a domestic union and rights movements did that. I just find it annoying giving the applause to those that didn't do it. By all means influenced by ideas from Revolutions on mainland Europe and the US...what the EU and Ecourt does is protect those rights and makes it more difficult to remove them. A domestic bill of rights would do the same however.
One side says the mega companies will bend us to their will through the big bad tories without the protection of the EU despite the fact those companies are all telling us to remain. Which is why I asked why would they want us to remain if the EU protected us from them? Answer is it doesn't; it does the opposite....is that a big enough reason to leave? I didn't say that...but just making **** up to feel better when it's blatantly not true is just silly.
I've already commented on the idiocy of isolationism in a previous post. It's never worked well in modern history. But there is a difference between isolationism and disagreeing with the level of integration...unfortunately due to Camerons scam negotiation isn't giving the people a choice of "what the EU should be" it's stay in same ****e treaty or leap into unknown.
That said...the Eunion the British people voted for is not remotely recognizable to the one they will vote for next month. If remain wins then the democratic process has been played out: the British people will have stated they are happy with an increased bureaucracy and more devolved powers than initially signed up to. Then that's fine.
It's the inherent weakness of the Brexit campaign that they can not point to a post exit vision of the future....I don't even mean economically as that's pointless...nobody can predict more than six months ahead as has been shown. I mean they can't go off and negotiate theoretical treaties with other countries and present them as the alternative.
What they could have done was show how they would spend the money we send and receive back...show how internal running of the funds would result in less bureaucracy...how they'd protect or improve on the current EU schemes regarding Agriculture, Fishing, R&D etc.
But they haven't. And because of this they will lose. Why do you think Remain uses the phrase "a leap into the dark" ad nauseum? People unless forced will always stick with the devil they know. They will never pick uncertainty....
The racism or xenophobic argument is a side issue...yes some Brexiteers are clearly racists. But Remain has all too often labelled anyone with genuine concerns about population movement and integration and how it can be handled by the domestic govt as swivelled eyed little Englanders....it's why labour has seen a significant amount of support shift to Ukip.
Unfortunately I think the only effect of this referendum will be to cement the general populations view that our politicians don't give two shots about our views...think we are too dumb to be trusted whole they have their childish power struggles...more detachment from the political class.
This
I heard a prominent politician say that Boris has one time or another not so long ago said exactly the opposite of most of the things he is currently supporting. He will say anything that will make him popular. Post Brexit will see Boris as the likely leader of the tories. as Cameron and Osborne will be booted out by the tories.
The threat of having him as PM is enough to make me vote the other way.