Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[Treble]

First point Yes...as I said...even with an exit vote...actual exit will not happen!

Labour have been a disgrace. The Remain arguments say Labour run areas will be worse effected by Brexit...where have they been? Turn up at odd venue with Cameron...that's it...

I don't know whether they are genuinely afraid to be associated with Tories or more likely in my opinion....they think this blue on blue devastation is good for them
..who says Boris Johnston is a bastard for thinking career first?????

On virtually every issue other than the economy, the Brexit campaign just sound more organised - immigration, public services, housing, spending, jobs, security.

And yet ALL of that is influenced by economy so why the **** arent Remain making a better case for why our public services will be ****ed by the downturn in economy. Or that housing will be ****ed by a worsening economy. Or that our jobs will be ****ed by a worsening economy.

We all know who's running the brexit campaign. Who the **** is actually running the remain campaign.

 

[DirtyFrank]

On virtually every issue other than the economy, the Brexit campaign just sound more organised - immigration, public services, housing, spending, jobs, security.

And yet ALL of that is influenced by economy so why the **** arent Remain making a better case for why our public services will be ****ed by the downturn in economy. Or that housing will be ****ed by a worsening economy. Or that our jobs will be ****ed by a worsening economy.

We all know who's running the brexit campaign. Who the **** is actually running the remain campaign.

Exactly!..overconfidence that they could scare people with the lowest argument.

Pisses me off that politicians still believe that we are fearful and ignorant...a lot are but they'd decided right from the start...

The rest of us having been begging for intelligent details from the start.

It's turned into a personality vote and Remain has failed at that with the campaign.

Have you noticed Remain has got more and more personal and the likes of Boris et al have started ignoring it...and yet that's how Brexit started!....

Remain had all the advantages...govt money...real leaders who talked to the EU
.everything....it's been awful complacency

 

[Treble]

Exactly!..overconfidence that they could scare people with the lowest argument.

Pisses me off that politicians still believe that we are fearful and ignorant...a lot are but they'd decided right from the start...

The rest of us having been begging for intelligent details from the start.

It's turned into a personality vote and Remain has failed at that with the campaign.

Have you noticed Remain has got more and more personal and the likes of Boris et al have started ignoring it...and yet that's how Brexit started!....

Remain had all the advantages...govt money...real leaders who talked to the EU
.everything....it's been awful complacency

Bang on the money. That's exactly it. A lot of name calling and emotional waffle instead of blowing them away with actual facts and figures. It's lost direction completely in my opinion.

 

[DirtyFrank]

What are your thoughts on Labours part in this Trebs?

Are they being horrendously cynical to take advantage of blue on blue..or are they relieved that the press hasn't looked at their own splits on the subject matter. Surely they know their own splits aren't nearly as bad to be a problem...other than their leaders split heart on the matter lol...

 

[Treble]

I'll be honest Frank I'm just a layman on the issue but generally have a good understanding of politics. And I can gauge good spin and diatribe but more importantly, public opinion.

A week or two ago I heard someone on the debate (could've been Portillo) actually saying "why arent Labour taking advantage of Boris vs Cameron". That's the view of a politician and hey presto, that's the way Labour suddenly started moving.

The trouble is I don't even think that's Labour's biggest problem in this debate. They just look weak. There's no powerful figures within. I have absolutely no doubt if David Milliband (the right brother) was in charge there would be a powerful campaign (in partnership with the tory government). DM was the last with that commanding status. I like Corbyn but this whole experience has made me question his leadership (lets be honest how passionate is he really for the EU anyway?)

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Ok am I the only one who's genuinely worried that Brexit are going to win?

Up until 2 days ago I was quite content that people will vote remain but two things have happened that makes me think Brexit are looking likely to have the edge.

Firstly the polls are showing Brexit are gaining momentum and some show they're even leading.

Secondly EVERY debate I'm watching the Brexit message is well organised and in unison and as a result powerful. It's emotive claptrap but the way it's being delivered makes it sound legitimate and real. While the Remain campaign seem to lack any ideas. They dont seem to be able to counter any claims from Brexit AND more importantly simply AREN'T making a powerful enough claim for people to stay.

I am genuinely worried.

I've said all along I thought Brexit would win, even when Remain had a 14 point lead. The weekend the government departments went into 'purdah' and the immigration figures came out that lead was hosed. I knew it would, simply because of my own anecdotal evidence of speaking to 'Mr Motorway Man' in work and at the gym. The economic argument for Brexit was lost weeks ago, but they know that. The nonsense about the £350m a week is easily falsifiable, but they know that too. Immigrant bashing though is a vein that runs deep within the body of British society. No different, in a way, to the Scottish nationalism too. If I was to repeat the words some have said about Muslims, 'darkies and ' 'Pakis' I'd rightly have my post pulled. Uncontrolled immigration has led to this, and now that knuckle-dragging, tattooed, beer-bellied genie is out of the bottle...

Part of me is still clinging to the forlorn hope that we may have a repeat of the Scotland referendum in that all the vox-pops, internet and live-debates were being dominated by the Cyber-Nats, but on the day there was a 'sleeping' majority that was more repulsed by the Nats and resistant to uncertainty - but the right-wing press were still urging a No vote in that case up till the very end. The difference is that the right wing press are with Brexit, and the youth vote that I was hoping that would counterbalance that? Well, my daughter just told me that her boyfriend and several of her fellow nurses haven't even bothered to register as, in their words "They don't understand it'. To top that off, my daughter said that where she is in Stockton (she's at Teeside Uni) they've had an NHS branded leaflet telling them to vote Brexit. It's not, of course, the NHS: it's the same trick as the battlebus with that's bogus NHS branding.

Nah, it's all over bar the shouting. I would say that we lobby and pester all those politicians who've backed Brexit to spend that 'extra' £350m a week on the NHS like they promised, but let's be honest - nobody, least of all the Brexit voters, believe that lie. Just some public rounding up of immigrants (especially the not so white ones) and televised deportations and the pitchfork and torch bearing mob will have forgotten that dogshit.

 

[Solid Air]

I like Corbyn but this whole experience has made me question his leadership (lets be honest how passionate is he really for the EU anyway?)

he isn't he is anti EU
problem remain camp have had is just saying one thing constantly (never mind the question) a lot of which has been ridiculous over exageration of legitimate points and never offering a positive version of staying just "leave and the economy will collapse". After a while people have just gone stuff this we are all doomed rhetoric.
have to say i'm not as surprised as most about the possibility of Brexit and in some ways my instinct is to leave apart from 2 reasons
1. The financial sector is absoluterly crucial to our economy and we cannot afford to have it outside the EU as they will introduce EU laws to favour Frankfurt / Paris as they resent the dominance of London - even in Euro trading

2. the leading Brexit campaigners are Boris ,IDS , Farage

as

 

[DirtyFrank]

I'll be honest Frank I'm just a layman on the issue but generally have a good understanding of politics. And I can gauge good spin and diatribe but more importantly, public opinion.

A week or two ago I heard someone on the debate (could've been Portillo) actually saying "why arent Labour taking advantage of Boris vs Cameron". That's the view of a politician and hey presto, that's the way Labour suddenly started moving.

The trouble is I don't even think that's Labour's biggest problem in this debate. They just look weak. There's no powerful figures within. I have absolutely no doubt if David Milliband (the right brother) was in charge there would be a powerful campaign (in partnership with the tory government). DM was the last with that commanding status. I like Corbyn but this whole experience has made me question his leadership (lets be honest how passionate is he really for the EU anyway?)

Same here...I personally don't like Corbyn...he reminds me of too many (old) middle class types that see protest as a hobby...or worse, protest as the only way...which is fine but you can't run a parliamentary party as person who wants to sit on the sideline with a placard.

Again..only good thing that may come out of this is both parties implode with two or three mini moderate parties that have to cooperate to get a voting majority...I'd be happy to see that. Telegraph did a nightmare scenario of this with a return of Blair as the dynamic leader but D Miliband is one they might have to consider.

Extreme left and right have their place in democracy as a stimulus and reminder of the alternative but central cooperation is best IMO.

 

[Solid Air]

I've said all along I thought Brexit would win, even when Remain had a 14 point lead. The weekend the government departments went into 'purdah' and the immigration figures came out that lead was hosed. I knew it would, simply because of my own anecdotal evidence of speaking to 'Mr Motorway Man' in work and at the gym. The economic argument for Brexit was lost weeks ago, but they know that. The nonsense about the £350m a week is easily falsifiable, but they know that too. Immigrant bashing though is a vein that runs deep within the body of British society. No different, in a way, to the Scottish nationalism too. If I was to repeat the words some have said about Muslims, 'darkies and ' 'Pakis' I'd rightly have my post pulled. Uncontrolled immigration has led to this, and now that knuckle-dragging, tattooed, beer-bellied genie is out of the bottle...

Part of me is still clinging to the forlorn hope that we may have a repeat of the Scotland referendum in that all the vox-pops, internet and live-debates were being dominated by the Cyber-Nats, but on the day there was a 'sleeping' majority that was more repulsed by the Nats and resistant to uncertainty - but the right-wing press were still urging a No vote in that case up till the very end. The difference is that the right wing press are with Brexit, and the youth vote that I was hoping that would counterbalance that? Well, my daughter just told me that her boyfriend and several of her fellow nurses haven't even bothered to register as, in their words "They don't understand it'. To top that off, my daughter said that where she is in Stockton (she's at Teeside Uni) they've had an NHS branded leaflet telling them to vote Brexit. It's not, of course, the NHS: it's the same trick as the battlebus with that's bogus NHS branding.

Nah, it's all over bar the shouting. I would say that we lobby and pester all those politicians who've backed Brexit to spend that 'extra' £350m a week on the NHS like they promised, but let's be honest - nobody, least of all the Brexit voters, believe that lie. Just some public rounding up of immigrants (especially the not so white ones) and televised deportations and the pitchfork and torch bearing mob will have forgotten that dogshit.

the idea that being against the net immigration levels of the last 10 years is not some indicator of racism it is a perfectly understandable reaction to increasing pressures on infrastructure which has been chronically underfunded for generations

 

[DirtyFrank]

the idea that being against the net immigration levels of the last 10 years is not some indicator of racism it is a perfectly understandable reaction to increasing pressures on infrastructure which has been chronically underfunded for generations

Yes but this is what annoys me about the opposition....they spent all their time saying cuts caused the pressure on services...but come referendum they go quiet!

Said before if figs are accurate over 90% of EU migrants come in to a job within 2 months of being here. Which means they pay tax. Which means they have the same right to services as someone moving from Scotland to London to a job.

It's an internal resource management problem not a service deficit pr8blem...

Remain haven't argued it like that the twats.

 

[Solid Air]

Yes but this is what annoys me about the opposition....they spent all their time saying cuts caused the pressure on services...but come referendum they go quiet!

Said before if figs are accurate over 90% of EU migrants come in to a job within 2 months of being here. Which means they pay tax. Which means they have the same right to services as someone moving from Scotland to London to a job.

It's an internal resource management problem not a service deficit pr8blem...

Remain haven't argued it like that the twats.

but you cannot plan the infrastructure upgrades in time when there are these surges of immigration particularly when they continue like this one has. It takes years to plan then build a primary school (at least it does in this country !) yet we need hundreds more of them plus teachers and will need a large expansion of secondary schools in very near future.
funny thing is of course as it takes a long time to train teachers we have to recruit t from abroad to fill the gaps .

 

[DirtyFrank]

but you cannot plan the infrastructure upgrades in time when there are these surges of immigration particularly when they continue like this one has. It takes years to plan then build a primary school (at least it does in this country !) yet we need hundreds more of them plus teachers and will need a large expansion of secondary schools in very near future.
funny thing is of course as it takes a long time to train teachers we have to recruit t from abroad to fill the gaps .

That is a fair point. If it was internal migration you just move existing personnel.

 

[Diego]

Yes but this is what annoys me about the opposition....they spent all their time saying cuts caused the pressure on services...but come referendum they go quiet!

Said before if figs are accurate over 90% of EU migrants come in to a job within 2 months of being here. Which means they pay tax. Which means they have the same right to services as someone moving from Scotland to London to a job.

It's an internal resource management problem not a service deficit pr8blem...

Remain haven't argued it like that the twats.

And according to people at many of the companies I visit they soon ask to go on a 3 day week so they can claim tax credits.
Having a job dose not equate to paying tax these days.

 

[Treble]

That is a fair point. If it was internal migration you just move existing personnel.

Actually it's not. The idea that we don't have enough primary schools is just nonsense tbh. And the pressure on teaching and the reasons why teachers are leaving in droves is fck all to do with immigration and completely to do with unmanageable workloads that's driving teachers out. And yet, surprisingly the numbers coming into teaching has never been so high. And I should know, I train them.

Yeh in about 3/4 years they're predicting a possible shortfall but that's to do with funding not immigration. We'd be facing exactly the same problem without EU immigration. Bloody hell we have 185000 net migration from outside the EU ffs. And trust me, 3 to 4 years is plenty of time to build schools.... if we actually wanted to spend the money to do it.

 

[saintanton]

Ok am I the only one who's genuinely worried that Brexit are going to win?

Up until 2 days ago I was quite content that people will vote remain but two things have happened that makes me think Brexit are looking likely to have the edge.

Firstly the polls are showing Brexit are gaining momentum and some show they're even leading.

Secondly EVERY debate I'm watching the Brexit message is well organised and in unison and as a result powerful. It's emotive claptrap but the way it's being delivered makes it sound legitimate and real. While the Remain campaign seem to lack any ideas. They dont seem to be able to counter any claims from Brexit AND more importantly simply AREN'T making a powerful enough claim for people to stay.

I am genuinely worried.

I've been worried about it for a long time.

 

[Treble]

the idea that being against the net immigration levels of the last 10 years is not some indicator of racism it is a perfectly understandable reaction to increasing pressures on infrastructure which has been chronically underfunded for generations

That's just a convenient argument. Do you honestly think Farage et al wouldnt be campaigning for Brexit if we had net EU migration of 50k like in the 80's and 90's??? Ofcourse they would.

 

[Solid Air]

Actually it's not. The idea that we don't have enough primary schools is just nonsense tbh. And the pressure on teaching and the reasons why teachers are leaving in droves is fck all to do with immigration and completely to do with unmanageable workloads that's driving teachers out. And yet, surprisingly the numbers coming into teaching has never been so high. And I should know, I train them.

Yeh in about 3/4 years they're predicting a possible shortfall but that's to do with funding not immigration. We'd be facing exactly the same problem without EU immigration. Bloody hell we have 185000 net migration from outside the EU ffs. And trust me, 3 to 4 years is plenty of time to build schools.... if we actually wanted to spend the money to do it.

tbh your first paragraph is nonsense.

 

[Diego]

That's just a convenient argument. Do you honestly think Farage et al wouldnt be campaigning for Brexit if we had net EU migration of 50k like in the 80's and 90's??? Ofcourse they would.

So if it's not immigration, why do you think they want out?

 

[Treble]

tbh your first paragraph is nonsense.

From someone in the profession? Great argument fella

 

[Diego]

tbh your first paragraph is nonsense.

Nope, it was very true. The pressure put on teachers today is ridiculous and takes much away from their actual ability and time to do the job.