Off Topic WW3 How Close?

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WorkyTicketFTM said:
Of course, it has for decades.. But what can we do about it? They are the biggest source of aid for Ukraine in this war and I’m sure the people around the POTUS are far more informed on what’s going on in this war than us. I don’t think it’s a good look pausing their funding after their “heated” discussion because it looks like toys out of the pram but there could be any amount of reasons that we don’t know of that are the driving force. I’m sure it’ll work out.

We’ve got our own govt whinging about a black hole, whinging about the country finances because of the previous government, people are on the bones of their arse yet we’re committing tens of billions of taxpayers money to the “defence” of a country that’s been on going for years now. What’s the plan? We can’t just keep giving Ukraine insane amounts of money to have tit for tat with Russia. I’m not for one saying Russia weren’t the aggressor by the way because they absolutely were but there needs to be a contingency or an endgame surely?
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This is a defining moment...Not to support Ukraine is unthinkable. If Russia wins, the cost will far exceed anything we and the rest of the world are paying now. We are looking at a Europe war square in the face, to simply stop helping Ukraine will enable the Russians to do what the hell they want and that is not an option, If America doesn't help, Europe needs to step up and buy the time until sanity is restored in the White House... The final cost would be unspeakable
 
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flandersmackem said:
This is a defining moment...Not to support Ukraine is unthinkable. If Russia wins, the cost will far exceed anything we and the rest of the world are paying now. We are looking at a Europe war square in the face, to simply stop helping Ukraine will enable the Russians to do what the hell they want and that is not an option, If America doesn't help, Europe needs to step up and buy the time until sanity is restored in the White House... The final cost would be unspeakable
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Oh I’m not disagreeing mate, but how do Ukraine “win”? There has to be a plan to end this it can’t just go on for the next decade is my point. How much money do Russia have to burn? There’s EU countries still buying their fossil fuels. As always the UK is a major player in funding this proxy war per GDP, and when our own country is a mess financially I’m not sure it’s wise to just continue ploughing so much money into this war without an end goal.
 
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WorkyTicketFTM said:
Oh I’m not disagreeing mate, but how do Ukraine “win”? There has to be a plan to end this it can’t just go on for the next decade is my point. How much money do Russia have to burn? There’s EU countries still buying their fossil fuels. As always the UK is a major player in funding this proxy war per GDP, and when our own country is a mess financially I’m not sure it’s wise to just continue ploughing so much money into this war without an end goal.
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How do Ukraine win , they win by joining Nato , sadly even if it means a negotiated border change , unpalatable as that is.
How does Europe win ? by being able to tell Trunp and his gready cronies to get stuffed.
Even if that includes embracing China to give that bastard predator something to worry about
We really do have Thatcher / Regan and Blair/ Bush axis for paving the way for the murderous gangster Putin to take over in the first place.
 
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WorkyTicketFTM said:
Oh I’m not disagreeing mate, but how do Ukraine “win”? There has to be a plan to end this it can’t just go on for the next decade is my point. How much money do Russia have to burn? There’s EU countries still buying their fossil fuels. As always the UK is a major player in funding this proxy war per GDP, and when our own country is a mess financially I’m not sure it’s wise to just continue ploughing so much money into this war without an end goal.
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Russia are low on men to fight, hence the North Koreans helping. They are low on equipment and according to those in the know, morale in their forces is at an all time low. Now is not the time to let up on support for Ukraine. America clearly have another agenda ( well Trump does) This war will cost untold billions to fund, but to see off Russia now will be a price worth paying, if they claim ANY victory in Ukraine, they then turn their attentions to Poland and the Baltic States. I agree, the finances of the country will be severely effected....but would you rather have the alternative of an unchecked Russia on the doorstep ?
 
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WorkyTicketFTM said:
Oh I’m not disagreeing mate, but how do Ukraine “win”? There has to be a plan to end this it can’t just go on for the next decade is my point. How much money do Russia have to burn? There’s EU countries still buying their fossil fuels. As always the UK is a major player in funding this proxy war per GDP, and when our own country is a mess financially I’m not sure it’s wise to just continue ploughing so much money into this war without an end goal.
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when ‘we will send missiles to Ukraine’ is accompanied with ‘these missiles will be built in Northern Ireland’ the reason for the support couldn’t be more obvious, good time to be long BAE.
 
flandersmackem said:
Russia are low on men to fight, hence the North Koreans helping. They are low on equipment and according to those in the know, morale in their forces is at an all time low. Now is not the time to let up on support for Ukraine. America clearly have another agenda ( well Trump does) This war will cost untold billions to fund, but to see off Russia now will be a price worth paying, if they claim ANY victory in Ukraine, they then turn their attentions to Poland and the Baltic States. I agree, the finances of the country will be severely effected....but would you rather have the alternative of an unchecked Russia on the doorstep ?
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unfortunately they’ve apparently been low on ammo since march 2022 and I think the reality is statements like this are simply not true

what is true whether folk like it or not is that Russia are stronger now than they are in 2022. Equipment and materials can be replaced but the knowledge and experience they have acquired over the past three years is paramount.

Russia has more peer to peer military experience than any country on earth, forces hardened and streamlined for 21st century P2P conflict.

The potential here is horrifying and hubris in the commons is terrifyingly naive.
 
williebeams said:
unfortunately they’ve apparently been low on ammo since march 2022 and I think the reality is statements like this are simply not true

what is true whether folk like it or not is that Russia are stronger now than they are in 2022. Equipment and materials can be replaced but the knowledge and experience they have acquired over the past three years is paramount.

Russia has more peer to peer military experience than any country on earth, forces hardened and streamlined for 21st century P2P conflict.

The potential here is horrifying and hubris in the commons is terrifyingly naive.
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Couple of things I fundamentally disagree with..... I don't think there is any Hubris in our government...yes Starmer has his faults, as did Rishi and Bojo...But I don't believe anyone who has had the PM's role has underestimated what is in front of them here, and where the UK can assist.
Secondly... IF Russia are this terrifying superpower with world class armed forces, how has taken them over 3 years to get where they are today against a country has was not really geared to combat this onslaught...and, lets face it is nowhere near defeating Ukraine at this moment..albeit they currently have an upper-hand. also, If they are not short of equipment or men, Why do they have prisoners, North Korean soldiers pushed to the front Line... This is why I say, now is NOT the time to ease up on this war... Russia CANNOT succeed with this.. the consequences would be horrific if they did....I also don't see Trump helping out, so lets hope we can buy enough time to see the Orange Moron out of office and some grown up take charge in the white House
 
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flandersmackem said:
This is a defining moment...Not to support Ukraine is unthinkable. If Russia wins, the cost will far exceed anything we and the rest of the world are paying now. We are looking at a Europe war square in the face, to simply stop helping Ukraine will enable the Russians to do what the hell they want and that is not an option, If America doesn't help, Europe needs to step up and buy the time until sanity is restored in the White House... The final cost would be unspeakable
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Bbc saying Ukraine have 6 months weapons stockpile. Europe need to get their act together and start supplying, or resolve the problem before then.
 
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flandersmackem said:
Couple of things I fundamentally disagree with..... I don't think there is any Hubris in our government...yes Starmer has his faults, as did Rishi and Bojo...But I don't believe anyone who has had the PM's role has underestimated what is in front of them here, and where the UK can assist.
Secondly... IF Russia are this terrifying superpower with world class armed forces, how has taken them over 3 years to get where they are today against a country has was not really geared to combat this onslaught...and, lets face it is nowhere near defeating Ukraine at this moment..albeit they currently have an upper-hand. also, If they are not short of equipment or men, Why do they have prisoners, North Korean soldiers pushed to the front Line... This is why I say, now is NOT the time to ease up on this war... Russia CANNOT succeed with this.. the consequences would be horrific if they did....I also don't see Trump helping out, so lets hope we can buy enough time to see the Orange Moron out of office and some grown up take charge in the white House
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a lot to unpack there but firstly I didn’t call the Russian forces a supreme fighting force, but alluded to the fact that there participation in the first peer to peer conflict of the 21st century had its advantages, it would be naive to suggest this experience is worthless.

secondly on the whole it’s ’taken them 3 years to get where they are today’ but in actuality they’ve acquired their goals on eastern by June 2022 and it’s Ukraines inability to dislodge them that will prevent Ukraine from removing Russia from its territory.

On the topic of hubris, of course there’s rampant hubris. Any PM that is casually throwing around rhetoric that claims boots on the ground and planes in a air and be lauded with ‘here here’s’ from his colleagues in the house is laughably naive, the potential ramifications and escalations here are incalculable.

I just think it’s escalatory and the off ramps are being removed at pace. There’s a route to peace here at the diplomatic table and that is achieved without British peacekeepers. I don’t believe in Russian/Putin aspirations of a rekindling of the Soviet Union either.
 
williebeams said:
a lot to unpack there but firstly I didn’t call the Russian forces a supreme fighting force, but alluded to the fact that there participation in the first peer to peer conflict of the 21st century had its advantages, it would be naive to suggest this experience is worthless.

secondly on the whole it’s ’taken them 3 years to get where they are today’ but in actuality they’ve acquired their goals on eastern by June 2022 and it’s Ukraines inability to dislodge them that will prevent Ukraine from removing Russia from its territory.

On the topic of hubris, of course there’s rampant hubris. Any PM that is casually throwing around rhetoric that claims boots on the ground and planes in a air and be lauded with ‘here here’s’ from his colleagues in the house is laughably naive, the potential ramifications and escalations here are incalculable.

I just think it’s escalatory and the off ramps are being removed at pace. There’s a route to peace here at the diplomatic table and that is achieved without British peacekeepers. I don’t believe in Russian/Putin aspirations of a rekindling of the Soviet Union either.
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You can't get any deal with Putin.

I can only see the Ukrainians giving up what they've lost by allowing them to join the EU and NATO, which is something Russia will not accept.

The Ukrainians must be fuming the yanks are stopping their support when they convinced them to give up their nuclear capabilities.
 
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williebeams said:
a lot to unpack there but firstly I didn’t call the Russian forces a supreme fighting force, but alluded to the fact that there participation in the first peer to peer conflict of the 21st century had its advantages, it would be naive to suggest this experience is worthless.

secondly on the whole it’s ’taken them 3 years to get where they are today’ but in actuality they’ve acquired their goals on eastern by June 2022 and it’s Ukraines inability to dislodge them that will prevent Ukraine from removing Russia from its territory.

On the topic of hubris, of course there’s rampant hubris. Any PM that is casually throwing around rhetoric that claims boots on the ground and planes in a air and be lauded with ‘here here’s’ from his colleagues in the house is laughably naive, the potential ramifications and escalations here are incalculable.

I just think it’s escalatory and the off ramps are being removed at pace. There’s a route to peace here at the diplomatic table and that is achieved without British peacekeepers. I don’t believe in Russian/Putin aspirations of a rekindling of the Soviet Union either.
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Let’s just agree to disagree
 
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Blond Bombshell said:
Let's try and tackle the current problem and the current personalities ego's
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If both POTUS’ who’ve met the bloke have said the same thing to Zelenskyy maybe there’s something in it. One thing’s for sure, there needs to be a resolution soon because without their support Ukraine are f*cked. We can’t afford to cover their contribution financially or in military equipment
 
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BRMC said:
You can't get any deal with Putin.

I can only see the Ukrainians giving up what they've lost by allowing them to join the EU and NATO, which is something Russia will not accept.

The Ukrainians must be fuming the yanks are stopping their support when they convinced them to give up their nuclear capabilities.
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the idea around Ukraine giving up whatever lost is interesting

I mean the government haven’t controlled the east since the secessionists seceded in 2014 in parallel with the maidan.

what I think it’s complexing and arguably oxymoronic is that ‘the people’ can oust a democratically elected government in 2014 and this is supportable but by the same token the people in the east can’t secede and not acknowledge the new government they ousted the democratically elected one.

at the very least it’s a basket case
 
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