Woodyer......

I see several questions being interpreted from the original.

Would I rather play like we have, rather than United. Absolutely.

Have we performed better in relation to resources available. Absolutely.

The original question though. 4th place or a European Cup win, it baffles me how anyone would pick 4th domestically over a major European Cup. I suspect if we had won the Europa and United finishes 4th we would be nearer to a consensus.
 
saintKlopp said:
I didn't mean Everton, I meant if we'd come 6th with cups and Utd had come 4th we'd be getting all the "Mickey Mouse" ****.
This isn't speculation, it's happened a few times. When Utd were competing at the top of the PL and serious in the CL we just got laughed at for the lesser cups, now suddenly it's an achievement.
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I don't think you would.

Compare it to last season - we won the FA Cup and finished fifth whilst your lot finished eighth. But if you'd won the EL then your season would have been better than ours no question. Wouldn't have mattered that you finished in 8th, you would have won a trophy with a more valuable reward in CL qualification. Ergo better season regardless of the league placings.

You only got laughed at for the league cup in 2012 because it didn't give you anything to build on for the following season, i.e. no CL. If we'd lost on Wednesday I'd fully expect us to have the same piss taken out of us. LC doesn't compensate for not playing in the CL next season, but we are playing in the CL so it gives us a bit of gloss rather than defining our success.
 
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astro said:
CLUB A
Exciting new manager's first full season
16 point improvement in PL even with massive injury record
Back in the CL for first time in 3 years
-£7m net spend so funds could be saved for when CL achieved

CLUB B
Previous manager who won the best domestic trophy sacked
Hire journeyman new manager fired after abusing his medical staff
New manager spends £149m in a window to win second rate trophies
3 points improvement in PL after being awarded the most offside goals ever


CLUB A
Click to expand...

Loon
 
Swarbs said:
I don't think you would.

Compare it to last season - we won the FA Cup and finished fifth whilst your lot finished eighth. But if you'd won the EL then your season would have been better than ours no question. Wouldn't have mattered that you finished in 8th, you would have won a trophy with a more valuable reward in CL qualification. Ergo better season regardless of the league placings.

You only got laughed at for the league cup in 2012 because it didn't give you anything to build on for the following season, i.e. no CL. If we'd lost on Wednesday I'd fully expect us to have the same piss taken out of us. LC doesn't compensate for not playing in the CL next season, but we are playing in the CL so it gives us a bit of gloss rather than defining our success.
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You have to look at all of what I'm saying, and in the context of our recent history. Being 7th or 8th isn't good enough, so climbing to 4th represents some much needed progress, which is why I think that for us it is more important. You prove my point by saying that us winning cups in the past meant little because we didn't kick on.
We may not kick on from 4th, it's true - but we'll have to wait and see. For now, the 16 point improvement means more to me.
I only asked which option people preferred, and that's my preference.
 
saintKlopp said:
You have to look at all of what I'm saying, and in the context of our recent history. Being 7th or 8th isn't good enough, so climbing to 4th represents some much needed progress, which is why I think that for us it is more important. You prove my point by saying that us winning cups in the past meant little because we didn't kick on.
We may not kick on from 4th, it's true - but we'll have to wait and see. For now, the 16 point improvement means more to me.
I only asked which option people preferred, and that's my preference.
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Fair enough.

So if I surmise correctly, your argument is that Liverpool's season shows more progress relative to past campaigns (13/14 excluded of course) whilst Utd's doesn't show much progress from the last two years, other than success in Europe.

If that's the argument I can accept it - relative to recent history Liverpool have had a better season in terms of progress. But in the context of one individual season, without considering history, would you accept ours has been objectively better?
 
Swarbs said:
Fair enough.

So if I surmise correctly, your argument is that Liverpool's season shows more progress relative to past campaigns (13/14 excluded of course) whilst Utd's doesn't show much progress from the last two years, other than success in Europe.

If that's the argument I can accept it - relative to recent history Liverpool have had a better season in terms of progress. But in the context of one individual season, without considering history, would you accept ours has been objectively better?
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Without taking into account history, or future potential, yes of course it has, but it can't be taken in isolation, imo.
Us winning the CL last time was a great one-off adventure, but we never really built on that (for various reasons) and our PL history is still really disappointing despite that win. I want us to get back to competing at the top of the PL more than anything else. Other successes are incidental to that for me.
 
saintKlopp said:
Without taking into account history, or future potential, yes of course it has, but it can't be taken in isolation, imo.
Us winning the CL last time was a great one-off adventure, but we never really built on that (for various reasons) and our PL history is still really disappointing despite that win. I want us to get back to competing at the top of the PL more than anything else. Other successes are incidental to that for me.
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If we do that, other successes will naturally follow.
 
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saintKlopp said:
Looking at it as a whole just backs up my point. Let me put it another way.
If Klopp leaves after another 5 years or whatever and we're still around 8th, would you be happy with that - even if he'd brought a few minor pots in on the way?
Moving up the league and winning more points is progress. Whether or not we can maintain that remains to be seen, but at this stage of our recent history, I think progress going forward is vastly more important than sideways achievement.
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look hand on heart i would predict we will end up back there cos i've no faith at all in the guys at the top now. FSG, michael edwards. etc etc.

I think we will be back there once klopp and his coaches go. they are just hoping gerrard takes over... no thought to future staffing

If klopp won a few cups and left in 6 years and retired i EXPECT us to fall back down there

To me progress is growing the club, not just merchandise. Really mature organisation structure, expertise, self sustaining success. I do NOT see our head of recruitment or FSg hiring the next coach.
 
Tobes said:
Is it really a choice like?

2 pots and CL vs 0 pots and CL

Ignoring which club did the best with the resources at their disposal argument, on the sheer end result it's surely a no brainer?
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Correct but the question posed wasn't purely the sheer end result
 
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the thing i find funny is people think utd have been so bad to watch they are west brom. realistic they prob have played a few games better than the ****e we'd seen for half the year since January :)
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
look hand on heart i would predict we will end up back there cos i've no faith at all in the guys at the top now. FSG, michael edwards. etc etc.

I think we will be back there once klopp and his coaches go. they are just hoping gerrard takes over... no thought to future staffing

If klopp won a few cups and left in 6 years and retired i EXPECT us to fall back down there

To me progress is growing the club, not just merchandise. Really mature organisation structure, expertise, self sustaining success. I do NOT see our head of recruitment or FSg hiring the next coach.
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You could be right, only time will tell, but this is just you being a miseryguts and in no way invalidates my point. <laugh>
You always talk us down.
 
saintKlopp said:
You could be right, only time will tell, but this is just you being a miseryguts and in no way invalidates my point. <laugh>
You always talk us down.
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You know i am right though

you could have pointed out how did we end up with klopp then... but instead you just go with the old misery guts line.

I know then people just don't want to admit that it is actually right.
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
You know i am right though

you could have pointed out how did we end up with klopp then... but instead you just go with the old misery guts line.

I know then people just don't want to admit that it is actually right.
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Not my fault - you are an old miseryguts.
How did your predictions for this season go, then?
I said we'd win everything. <ok>
 
saintKlopp said:
Not my fault - you are an old miseryguts.
How did your predictions for this season go, then?
I said we'd win everything. <ok>
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I'm happy cos i said 6th and sf of league cup i think and we exceeded my expectations (a little)

Of course being on for a great season then losing it was disappointing but we did better than i expected and got 7 more points than my most optimistic expectations after January.
 
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Tobes said:
I know, but is the answer any different?
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It is for me. I'd rather be entertained and win ****all than be bored ****less week after week.

A nuns **** is more entertaining than a Mourinho team!
 
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