Winter transfer window

[WorkyTicketFTM]

It’s RLB. Rigg (the only player who really fits the brief this season) didn’t start the season in the team. Browne did. However it quickly became apparent that Rigg was better. The retconning of events to continually demonstrate that there’s something murky going on is weird. Now we’re saying that speakman is pressuring managers to drop players that speakman brought in? Players who get used by fans as a stick to beat him with? Could it not be something as simple as the club identifying players with massive talent and recognising that these types of players need minutes to develop to benefit Sunderland on the pitch? Given that was proven in the case of Bellingham it seems likely.

The Speakman debate is boring. It’s peppered with completely made up nonsense from people who long since decided that he’s bad and are always on the lookout for evidence of this. See Bob’s (I’ll be charitable) complete misunderstanding of RLBs comments about January. The reality is far more mundane. They just see football club development to be a longer term process than some Sunderland fans are willing to accept. They’ll take short term pain for long term gain. Many Sunderland fans these days piss their pants if we drop two points.

Can’t really blame the fans when the owner said he wants to achieve PL football in 5 years when he took over if that’s the case.

I agree with both sides of the argument here. KLD/Speakman have done a brilliant job that’s undeniable we have one of the best squads in the league. But I do think we have too much youth and inexperience in the squad to be consistent. It’s not all about having a potential wonderkid that you can make a profit on playing in every position on the pitch, and then more on the bench.

 

[Culinary]

With respect Dack is the needle in the haystack. I don't think he is to be honest. One minute most were calling him uncle Tone and loving him, now because he has said something that goes against the grain he is a self preservationist?

Nope, I called him that throughout and the two aren’t mutually exclusive, he’s still Uncle Tony. I think he’s great and loved his time here (whilst also believing he’d peaked and that it was a good time to move on (though was obviously done terribly)).

 

[Prehab26]

Mowbray too is renowned for his 65 minute substitutions, that didn’t change here and was very different from RLB, Alex Neil and Dodds. Almost like they all had autonomy to make their own decisions.

Both Mowbray and Neil wanted more experience and wanted to play more experienced players. That didn't happen though.

Anyway, canny debate this morning. Be interesting to see how the season unfolds and how the Jan window goes. I just hope we don't see our bigger ceiling players get every minute under the sun, that damages this season, the here and now.

 

[Frazier the Lion]

No I get that but do you also not consider the point I made about getting the balance. Yeah, it's great that we will develop these players and the price will be higher next year.

What about short term performance drops and results. We seen it last year and TBF with no win in 6 weeks we have seen in now. We have been crying out for some of this bihher, higher priced players to be taken off for fresh legs. They haven't. I don't think it's RLB as the same happened under Beale and Mowbray, as previously stated.

I get your point, I just think you’re looking for confirmation and are ascribing motive to the club that isn’t about long term development on the pitch because it suits your view. It’s telling that you say it’s only about price increase. The Bellingham example proves that this isn’t the case.

 

[Brainy Dose]

I must be missing something here, but I'm struggling to see why any self-respecting coach,whose livelihood and career depends on results, would allow himself to be pressured into selecting certain players at certain times,when he may not feel it would be to the benefit of the overall team performance,albeit a benefit for the club as a whole in the future.

 

[Frazier the Lion]

Can’t really blame the fans when the owner said he wants to achieve PL football in 5 years when he took over if that’s the case.

I agree with both sides of the argument here. KLD/Speakman have done a brilliant job that’s undeniable we have one of the best squads in the league. But I do think we have too much youth and inexperience in the squad to be consistent. It’s not all about having a potential wonderkid that you can make a profit on playing in every position on the pitch, and then more on the bench.

You’re right, it’s not about that. It’s about a club who are four seasons into a five year plan and are currently fourth in the championship.

 

[Prehab26]

I get your point, I just think you’re looking for confirmation and are ascribing motive to the club that isn’t about long term development on the pitch because it suits your view. It’s telling that you say it’s only about price increase. The Bellingham example proves that this isn’t the case.

It's not just about price increase, it's obviously player development. As we have seen with Jobe. You're correct there. But there are too many examples of certain players, playing far too many minutes when the immediate, here and now form doesn't warrant it. These players are the ones with the bigger market value in the future. Risky IMO and it's been proven that short term results suffer for it.

 

[SourPatch2]

Alese and Mayenda both returning from injuries. The bomb for the squad is players, I feel the have wrote off. That's why they tried everything to shift in window and no one would take them due to wages. Since then they have been completely drifted and mostly play with the U21s. Why on earth would our midfield play every single minute when other options are on the bench? It's the upside and the in market players who everyone wants. It's the same as last year. Rigg is last year's Jobe IMO.

It's a balance though, as I said, short term results can tank, and they have at forcing minutes into these players

You keep saying 'these players' though yet I don't see an example of it outside of Rigg, who if you remember didn't start the first game of the season and frankly has deserved every minute he's had since.

Like I said, if it was a pattern across the board i'd understand but it really isn't. We are quite literally fielding 2 loanees, a 27 y/o winger who hasn't done anything for 2 years and a 30 y/o centre back nearly every game. None of them things are business decisions.

 

[Frazier the Lion]

It's not just about price increase, it's obviously player development. As we have seen with Jobe. You're correct there. But there are too many examples of certain players, playing far too many minutes when the immediate, here and now form doesn't warrant it. These players are the ones with the bigger market value in the future. Risky IMO and it's been proven that short term results suffer for it.

And yet the club keeps moving forward.

 

[Prehab26]

And yet the club keeps moving forward.

Potentially. Be interesting to see how we finish this year.

 

[WorkyTicketFTM]

And yet the club keeps moving forward.

Just to play devils advocate if we weren’t to pick up any points next two games we’d be in exactly the same position we were at the same stage last season, 33 points and around 6th place. Last season wasn’t a step forward. Second half of this season is massive for us, I think we’ll make play offs however we need recruitment in January and/or Samed amongst the squad ASAP.

 

[Prehab26]

You keep saying 'these players' though yet I don't see an example of it outside of Rigg, who if you remember didn't start the first game of the season and frankly has deserved every minute he's had since.

Like I said, if it was a pattern across the board i'd understand but it really isn't. We are quite literally fielding 2 loanees, a 27 y/o winger who hasn't done anything for 2 years and a 30 y/o centre back nearly every game. None of them things are business decisions.

Rigg hasn't deserved every minute. He should have been hooked in many games. Last 20 for a canny few he has been poor. He is an insane talent but is playing too much and through treacle the last 20. It's the same as Jobe last year.

 

[SourPatch2]

Rigg hasn't deserved every minute. He should have been hooked in many games. Last 20 for a canny few he has been poor. He is an insane talent but is playing too much and through treacle the last 20. It's the same as Jobe last year.

He's been subbed off in 9 of the 16 games he's started.

He's been poor recently but again, surely if increasing value of players was being forced on RLB then Aleksic would've been brought on for him more? The argument falls down once you look at it properly.

 

[Culinary]

He's been subbed off in 9 of the 16 games he's started.

He's been poor recently but again, surely if increasing value of players was being forced on RLB then Aleksic would've been brought on for him more? The argument falls down once you look at it properly.

The argument also assumes that if the playing time and ‘extra minutes’ are having a detrimental affect on performance levels then the club can’t see it (as that’s only going to negatively impact on resale value). Seems unlikely to me.

 

[FellTop]

I do wonder whether there is a process within our leadership team which gets a little confused as to the purpose if it leaks a little to the outside world? My understanding is lots of clubs with the sort of leadership structure we have (Speakman, Murty, first team coaches, sports science, data) will have regular meetings to discuss performance and future plans. Usually built around a 3 or 4 game cycle. They look at all the evidence they can find to understand what has driven good and bad performance, and look at things that might have been done differently and what may be improved upon for the next games. A bit like any profession there are regular review and planning meetings. I fully expect head coaches to be asked lots of why questions in those meetings, and for him to give his rationale. I expect data guys to give insight, sports science guys etc. All that goes into the mix for the team to draw some conclusions from. I do believe it stops well short of saying Rigg must play every game though. Much more likely is the collective view is his performance level, his data, his sports science data, all adding up to their being no real reason to taking him out because someone is capable of punching above him. Ultimately the decision will be Regis's in my opinion, but there should be a healthy discussion regularly amongst the top team as to the whys and wherefores.

 

[LD19SAFC]

Rigg hasn't deserved every minute. He should have been hooked in many games. Last 20 for a canny few he has been poor. He is an insane talent but is playing too much and through treacle the last 20. It's the same as Jobe last year.

Yep

I was in shock many times last season when Jobe remained on the pitch. Waste of a shirt. Pointless being there in some fixtures. He’s been quality this season so far but it was ridiculous the minutes he got last season.

 

[alcoauth]

Is Mepham on loan here because Bournemouth want him to get lots of games with us and develop into a better player. The way we are loaning out some of our players to give them playing time and come back better.
Or, on the other hand, have we got Mepham because he has no future at Bournemouth and he’s something like Ba or Adil here but with less time on his contract.

Do we think we will get him signed up on a permanent and if so, how much, and will it be in January or the summer.

I think there were no takers for Mepham at the price they wanted, so the idea is to loan him out somewhere in the hopes he does well and someone will pay the price they're looking for.

I think if we are promoted we'll almost certainly sign him for a fee of around £5m, if we're still in the Championship we'll likely face competition for him.

 

[Southern A]

I agree Rigg has looked like he's needed a rest recently but he's only played 90 minutes 7 times. I think he could do with coming off slightly earlier, mind.

That said, I said the same about Jobe last year and his development has gone through the roof so perhaps they know better than me about how to develop talent.

 

[SourPatch2]

I do wonder whether there is a process within our leadership team which gets a little confused as to the purpose if it leaks a little to the outside world? My understanding is lots of clubs with the sort of leadership structure we have (Speakman, Murty, first team coaches, sports science, data) will have regular meetings to discuss performance and future plans. Usually built around a 3 or 4 game cycle. They look at all the evidence they can find to understand what has driven good and bad performance, and look at things that might have been done differently and what may be improved upon for the next games. A bit like any profession there are regular review and planning meetings. I fully expect head coaches to be asked lots of why questions in those meetings, and for him to give his rationale. I expect data guys to give insight, sports science guys etc. All that goes into the mix for the team to draw some conclusions from. I do believe it stops well short of saying Rigg must play every game though. Much more likely is the collective view is his performance level, his data, his sports science data, all adding up to their being no real reason to taking him out because someone is capable of punching above him. Ultimately the decision will be Regis's in my opinion, but there should be a healthy discussion regularly amongst the top team as to the whys and wherefores.

I think this is pretty much bang on.

 

[nandossonicsauce]

No it's in my opinion and how I see it, FFS

That's fair enough. We are all entitled to an opinion on our club. That's why I am asking which players in your opinion are playing in the 1st team ahead of players who should be in their position instead?

I can say we all felt Jobe played too much last season when could/should have been rested but he has been superb for us this season. Rigg is the only other player who I can think you might mean but he has been class mostly and I would only rest him going forward if his form drops off as i still think he is playing well. Perhaps Jobe and Rigg only signed if given assurances of playing time so they might not be here if not, so it's a double edged sword as we have been top of the leage for ages which no one really expected.

Speakman and RLB have stated that we are going to give game time for the young players to get some experience and i think Watson will be the new one to get plenty of time , as was Mundle at the start of the season and he grabbed his chance before his injury.

I would loved to have seen more of Alecksic than we have but because of how we were playing it was maybe a chance for him to get used to living in a different country and the language barrier.