Wingless Wonders

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fatletiss

fatletiss

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
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Northampton
And they said Sir Alf didn't know what he was doing and we'd never win the World Cup!

It appears even stronger that wide men are not the flavour for Mauricio Pochettino (ignoring the fact we nearly signed the lad from Valencia). There has been a lot of consternation about our lack of a real winger from most fans, including myself, but is it all the bad? MP likes to play a very fluid style, with positions rotating during play; heck, even his coach says "a position is just where you start" Maybe our coach is tactically shaping these players even further.

Adam Lallana, Jayrod, Ramirez, Guly have all played portions of games where they have drifted wide and had a few moments in games where they have done something creative from wide. It's just not happened often or consistently enough. If we think about Rickie Lambert, how many times have we waxed lyrical about how in the past he has been our creative force by getting assists by drifting wide and supplying crosses or passes that have lead to goals? I'd say several. What about Osvaldo? In his brief excursions in our red shirts, he looks like a player who is going to be a handful and creative; I've already seen him dink excellent passes into dangerous areas and what about that superb cross from wide for Jayrod against Sunderland? MP will have our forward 3,4 or 6 rotating and moving to create some havoc amongst opposing defenders and we are seeing a little of that now. It's only been three games.

JWP is proving how good a crosser of the ball he is and I've read suggestions of a 'New Beckham' type player that doesn't need to be a winger and beat men, but just deliver an excellent cross. Clyne and Shaw have the potential to be England flying full backs in the future. We continually talk about them bombing forward and getting down the wing. Gary Neville said three weeks ago that a fullback today has to be able to play like a winger; well, ours certainly have that potential and can do that.

Yes, I was right at the front of the queue with my hand out asking for a winger and even more so when Puncheon left for his new Royal home. I've just had a little thought since the window closing and reviewed where we are. We have an exceptional, young, modern coach, much revered throughout the top coaches in Europe. We have signed three outstanding players of real quality and possibly at a level higher than I dreamed we could sign from (I still find it amazing that we actually signed a player from Mighty Roma). We have strengthened down the spine of the team: CB, CM, CF. We now do have better quality on the bench. We have two, maybe three new youngsters just around the corner of the first team.

I think it's time to let MP develop this group of players and I'm excited now. The creative players are there (Osvaldo/Lallana/Ramirez/Morgan). The pace is there (Jayrod/Clyne/Shaw). The strength is there (victor/Morgan/Lovren). The strong keeper is there and the defence has been improved. Ideally we might have had more, but:

The chances are coming.

The goals are coming.

The Saints are coming.
 
Perez actually said the position is only where you play; though he said we have a fluid style in attack, he didn't imply that players would abandon their positions as many have interpreted.

But let's say you're right and that players will frequently find themselves on the wing. The problem still remains that we have no players who are naturally suited to that position, who have the pace and trickery to go past a full-back or run from there at the heart of the defence (with the exception perhaps of Rodriguez). You mention Beckham but on the other side United had Giggs, the archetypal winger. Would they have been the same team without him?

There's a lot of good in our team as you point out, but I still believe it would be better with someone in it who can regularly get behind a defence. We often struggle to break teams down through the middle, or with deep crosses, and I think this (apart from the defence, still) is the biggest weakness in the team.

Pochettino's reign so far has been characterised by a much improved defence (though as I say it is still not really good enough), but by a stemming of the relatively free-scoring attack we had under Adkins. This needs to be remedied if we are to challenge for a top-half finish. Perhaps Osvaldo will be the key to this, but that remains to be seen.
 
Pretty sure that Perez said that position is where you start from, it's how you play that matters. Then went on to talk about our fluid style. As long as the team are happy with this style (which they seem to be) it must make it difficult for the opposition to cope with.
 
"It's not important where you are playing, it's important how you are playing" and "we don't like to play in positions, we like to play from positions" - not really implying that players will move to other positions, just that they will be fluid in attack.
 
During our Championship promotion season, I often got frustrated at how we kept trying to play the ball down wide when playing through the middle looked the better option. How often did we watch a frustrated Guly marooned on the touchline?

Besides, Shaw, Lallana and Clyne are all capable of going past a full back. What we do lack is someone with the pace to chase and win balls played in behind the oppositions back four. Mayuka looks quick enough, if he does turn out to be good enough.
 
I think that we have missed a fit Clyne and Shaw. Chambers is more defensive minded than Clyne....as Shaw was initially...though he looks very promising. Another one from the Academy who just slots in. Fox just isn't up to replacing Shaw.

The question is will we see Mayuka again....is this move to give him game time as he is seen as a prospect or is he on his way out?
 
pass the football said:
"It's not important where you are playing, it's important how you are playing" and "we don't like to play in positions, we like to play from positions" - not really implying that players will move to other positions, just that they will be fluid in attack.
Click to expand...

Blimey PTF, you really could argue with yourself in a dark, empty room. You get the gist of my post. Fluidity will see players in different areas ('positions') of the pitch during the flow of the game. I'm keen to see how MP develops this group of players, particularly as, like Sir Alf, he seems to be going against what the majority of fans seem to think.
 
fatletiss said:
Blimey PTF, you really could argue with yourself in a dark, empty room. You get the gist of my post. Fluidity will see players in different areas ('positions') of the pitch during the flow of the game. I'm keen to see how MP develops this group of players, particularly as, like Sir Alf, he seems to be going against what the majority of fans seem to think.
Click to expand...

Well I have noticed that this quote of his has been distorted and is being repeated in a chinese whispers fashion. But ok, in future I'll just let people say whatever they want, after all the truth isn't really important :p

Now read the rest of what I said and respond to that, if you can manage to look past the opportunity to have a dig at me.
 
Love your optimism FLT. I tend to favour pessimism:emoticon-0101-sadsm I think we'd be better if we'd kept Puncheon and better if we'd kept Cork and Schneiderlin as a unit. Puncheon was the closest thing we had to a genuine winger and he and Clyne were superb together. Sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.
 
our best team if our current players start playing to their ability is imo:

-----------Boruc-----------
Clyne--Yoshida--Lovren--Shaw
--Cork-Wanyama-Schneiderlin
---------Ramirez------------
-----Osvaldo--Lambert------

We played a similar formation without the requisite attacking fullbacks on saturday. It didn't really work and appears to be quite severely limited in its ability to execute a press i.e Lambert and Osvaldo don't apply enough pressure initially and so there is always an easy pass. Not playing a press against the weaker teams is not a bad thing considering the attacking players we now have should be able to break a team down. I think we have the potential to play brilliant attacking football but with this system we will more than likely be able to grind out 1-0s week in week out, which seems to be more Pochettino's style. In essence we will defend cohesively, control possession and rely on the natural attacking ability of our sometimes brilliant attackers.

The lack of early width should be easily countered by the free roaming Osvaldo and Ramirez/Lallana who as you say flt are capable of putting in a good ball.
 
TheSecondStain said:
If he have said that it would have been nothing notable.

He actually said ...we don't like to play in position, we like to play from position... and ...it's not important where you are playing, it is more important how you are playing.

Total football, anyone..? :)

Nice read FLT.
Click to expand...

Poortvliet IN!
 
pass the football said:
Well I have noticed that this quote of his has been distorted and is being repeated in a chinese whispers fashion. But ok, in future I'll just let people say whatever they want, after all the truth isn't really important :p

Now read the rest of what I said and respond to that, if you can manage to look past the opportunity to have a dig at me.
Click to expand...

PTF believe me when I say that I was not having a dig at you. You contribute some very good discussions to this forum. Quite often though you seem to focus on correcting details in people's posts rather than look at the overall point of the post. With this now, you have taken my post and started on the actual words said by Perez, when I really think that it is clear that my post was not about what he had said, but what I feel about Saints and the lack of wingers in our squad.

It's funny, because when I wrote this thread I actually thought you would make a good contribution because of your contribution in the early Mayuka thread; just a shame you focused straight away on correcting someone on a minor detail.

As for the rest of what you have written (if you refer to your first post), I think you have not said anything different to the Mayuka thread and said (let me just take a moment to scroll up and get this right ....... <whistle>) " The problem still remains that we have no players who are naturally suited to that position, who have the pace and trickery to go past a full-back or run from there at the heart of the defence (with the exception perhaps of Rodriguez)." I think we have those I mentioned on the other thread so I won't go through it again or we'll be going round in circles.

Trying to keep myself back on topic, I basically wrote a few paragraphs that really was saying that we should maybe now see what MP delivers and hope he gets it right as I think we all want him to get it right, despite the fact the it seems as if most of us (me included) felt we needed more wide players.
 
Lff said:
Love your optimism FLT. I tend to favour pessimism:emoticon-0101-sadsm I think we'd be better if we'd kept Puncheon and better if we'd kept Cork and Schneiderlin as a unit. Puncheon was the closest thing we had to a genuine winger and he and Clyne were superb together. Sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.
Click to expand...

Thanks Lff, I do tend to fall on the optimistic side. I wrote what I did, because I don't think it's a case of 'me being right' as I also feel we miss Punch or a similar player, but more making the point that we are now where we are and trying to take a step back and see what MP is thinking and planning.

I hope he has a plan or two.
 
Swansea play the same way, with their attacking midfielders coming inside rather than trying to beat the fullback down the flank. If you watched them on Saturday, you'll have noticed how attacking their fullbacks Rangel and Davies were. They get forward and stay forward, while a player like Canas drops back to basically make a back three with Williams and Chico, like so:

-----------Bony
---Pablo---Michu---Routledge
-----Shelvey---Canas
Davies---Chico---Williams---Rangel
-----------Vorm
(starting positions)

-------Bony----Michu
Davies--Pablo---Routledge--Rangel
----------Shelvey
----Chico--Canas--Williams
------------Vorm
(in attack)

No reason we can't do the same thing with Shaw and Clyne.
 
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