What's in a (nick) name?

[Southern A]

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Some of you guys must be in that photo surely?

 

[The Norton Cat]

we could have been the Rabbits Foot team Looks line a cat "moved in" as a mouser and it was black, and then got adopted.

Speculation is fine, but the earliest documented links are those around 1909. Can anyone find any mention of Black Cats linked to Sunderland from that period (in any circumstance, not just football)? The battery was south of the river, later had barracks built on/near the site. Sunderland football club was always north of the river and in the early days was founded by teachers; no military link.

2000 or 1990 for the first mention does not really matter. Both are too late, i.e. too big a gap (from 1909) with no other mentions of this link. Or can anyone find any?

So could the name be linked to the battery, well yes. But there is no actual evidence other than coincidence. I think we have to leave the "jury out" for now!

A link to the original research work cited in the other links. The "blackcats.org.uk" site no longer exists, so this is from the web archive.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140624222002/http://blackcats.org.uk/cat-history.html

an excerpt:
In January 1909, Sunderland were going through what was for them a relatively lean spell. It had been seven years since we had won the League, and the team which was to win the Championship with a record number of points and get to the Cup Final in 1913 was only just starting to come together.

A 4-1 home defeat to Liverpool on New Years Day 1909 left the club in the bottom half of the First Division. When the players came into the dressing room the following day before the game against Bury, they found a stray black cat in residence.

Sunderland won 3-1 that day, despite Harry Low missing a penalty, and this coincidence started the "lucky black cat" story. A fortnight later when we went to Bramall Lane and won 3-2 in the FA Cup after being 0-2 down in the second half, the feline mascot was offically adopted by the players.

By the end of January 1909, the Sunderland Echo reported of the cat: "there has been a big demand for its portrait, more having been disposed of than of all the players put together". The thousands who went to Newcastle for the FA Cup quarter final that season had black cat mascots adorned with red and white ribbons.

I still think the most likely origin is the gun battery, although its possibly not a direct link. I would suggest that there is some probability that there was already some kind of (maybe tenuous) link that made F W Taylor, a renowned lover of dogs, have his photo taken with a black cat in 1905.

The club wasn't always north of the river. The first three grounds were the Blue House Field in Hendon, the Cedars in Ashbrooke, and Groves Field in Ashbrooke. None of which are a million miles from where the battery was located (its position can be found on the Tyne and Wear HER).

The club was opened up to more than just teachers at the end of 1880, just over a year after it was established. However, I don't think that the name would have come from members of the garrison manning the battery playing for the club. Mainly because the battery appears to have been removed in the 1840s when the docks were remodelled.

I think the point here is, and this has been suggested by several commentaries, that the name stuck around and was later adopted by the club. They suggest that the black cat became a totem locally. The key to answering this is finding other examples of the black cat symbolism being used in the area in the 19th century, as you say. The problem is, an absence of evidence doesn't mean that the link between the gun battery and the club can be dismissed.

 

[The Legendary Tongue]

Some of you guys must be in that photo surely?

Cheeky twat, I was still at school.

 

[C Montgomery Burns]

True about the gap between the gun battery ceasing to exist and the club being founded but, like I say, these things stick in the folk memory.
EDIT: The John Paul Jones Battery (which became known as the Black Cat in 1805) potentially stood until the 1840s (as late as 1848), which is when the nearby Coney Warren Battery was removed by the Sunderland Dock Coy during renovation. If that's the case, the gun battery was present within living memory of the foundation date of the club.


The Ryehill article, I believe, is wrong in saying that the link between gun battery and club wasn't made until 2000 because, as I said, I believe that the 'Sunderland Annual 1990' carried the gun battery explanation. I don't really trust their research I'm afraid. For example, I think their assertion about the date the club was founded is misinterpretation of the evidence.

That's not to say that the gun battery is the reason, or at least not the sole reason. I think there is a logical connection there. Much more logical than stating that there is no connection. The names of places tend to stick around long after the thing that gave them their name has gone (there's a road junction near where I live now named after a pub but the pub has been gone donkey's years). I think the most likely thing is that the name stuck around, someone made a connection and ran with it. I mean, why did Billy Hogg choose to be photographed with a black cat and not some other lucky charm?

I'm sure one of the old Wear ferries was called "the Black Cat", named after the gun battery and was built by JL Thompson ship builders, who were involved with SAFC in our early days. It might be a tenuous, stretched link, but along with the cat that lived in the Roker end it might be enough to have had the name linked to us, especially the supporters, for well over 100 years.

 

[marcusblackcat]

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Would’ve won the double had we won it too!!

 

[Blond Bombshell]

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This is the sort of thing that gets under my skin because I hate inaccuracy but does anyone else have any thoughts about this?

I have always held it to be true that the name comes from the 18th century gun battery that stood on the south dock or pier (I think). It was originally called the Paul Jones Battery but became known as the Black Cat Battery due to one of its crew being frightened by something at night, which he took to be the devil but turned out to just be a black cat. The name stuck, the black cat became a bit of a local emblem or talisman, and was naturally adopted by the football club or its supporters (not the actual cat, it would have been long dead by the time the club was founded, but the black cat as a symbol).

There is a local football/history website (I won't name them because I've argued with them before on Twitter as I think they get a lot of stuff wrong) who claim that no one linked the club's nickname with the gun battery until about 2000, but I distinctly remember reading this version in the 'Sunderland Annual 1990.' I've probably still got it somewhere.

Great thread marra, I've really enjoyed reading all the comments.

My thoughts on these anecdotes is that the Black Cats gun battery name would be remembered with affection by people of the area, and as the club was formed by local school teacher's, the name would be easily linked to the club.

 

[Expat-Cat]

In "origin" finding, actual evidence is very important.

The problem with the battery name being the origin is that there is zero evidence that it is, other than it being an attractive story.

The first time a black cat had any association with SAFC was in the early 1900's, years after the battery disappeared. And this event has a lot of documented evidence. There is NO record of this nickname at all before this date.

The player in the first recorded photo of a black cat with the club was not even from the town (not negative in itself, but...)

There is no record (newspapers etc.) of the term being used in association with the town for the intervening at-least 60 years from the demise of the battery.

In fact, evidence for the guns ever being called the "black cat battery" is weak to non-existent, until it gets mentioned in the late 20thC. The battery did exist, as the "John Paul Jones Battery".

Yes things remain in local memory, but they nearly always get recorded somewhere during any period (at least since the late 18th C).

If there was a ferry called the Black Cat, that would be great information. It might help at least build a link.

So a great story, but it must remain as a hypothesis until any evidence can be found.

 

[John Wick]

Once knew a lad called "pothole" because everyone wanted to avoid him.

 

[FellTop]

In "origin" finding, actual evidence is very important.

The problem with the battery name being the origin is that there is zero evidence that it is, other than it being an attractive story.

The first time a black cat had any association with SAFC was in the early 1900's, years after the battery disappeared. And this event has a lot of documented evidence. There is NO record of this nickname at all before this date.

The player in the first recorded photo of a black cat with the club was not even from the town (not negative in itself, but...)

There is no record (newspapers etc.) of the term being used in association with the town for the intervening at-least 60 years from the demise of the battery.

In fact, evidence for the guns ever being called the "black cat battery" is weak to non-existent, until it gets mentioned in the late 20thC. The battery did exist, as the "John Paul Jones Battery".

Yes things remain in local memory, but they nearly always get recorded somewhere during any period (at least since the late 18th C).

If there was a ferry called the Black Cat, that would be great information. It might help at least build a link.

So a great story, but it must remain as a hypothesis until any evidence can be found.

I am much more inclined to give weight to oral traditions personally. Evidence is more than what can be touched or seen in my opinion. In fact, I would go so far as to say, oral traditions are at times less open to interpretation than physical evidence seems to be.

My old man talks about the gun battery being linked to the black cat name. He is not far off 90. He says he heard it as a kid. He also says the 73 cup run brought it mord back into the consciousness outside of Sunderland.

Anyway, I like stories and leaps of faith. This one is a good one and I am staying with it.

Now what channel is Earth Ancients on

 

[The Norton Cat]

I am much more inclined to give weight to oral traditions personally. Evidence is more than what can be touched or seen in my opinion. In fact, I would go so far as to say, oral traditions are at times less open to interpretation than physical evidence seems to be.

My old man talks about the gun battery being linked to the black cat name. He is not far off 90. He says he heard it as a kid. He also says the 73 cup run brought it mord back into the consciousness outside of Sunderland.

Anyway, I like stories and leaps of faith. This one is a good one and I am staying with it.

Now what channel is Earth Ancients on

I agree with you. I think oral traditions are important.

The story that the name comes from a cat at the club's ground is, as far as I can tell, also an oral tradition. I've seen several different versions (a cat was found in the dressing room after a bad run of defeats and results improved thereafter; the same thing but a cat ran across the pitch; a cat used to live at Roker Park and slept on the crossbar when no one was there) and several different dates applied to them, the most recent being the 1960s. The gun battery being the ultimate origin of the name is a much more consistent story, and therefore more believable.

I think the photos of players and board members with black cats, and other uses of that imagery in other places, raise more questions than they provide answers. Why did FW Taylor appear in a photo with a black cat in 1905? And then why did Hogg appear in a photo with the same imagery four years later? To me, it all suggests that there was already an established link for that imagery to be chosen.

Funnily enough, my dad, who's in his 70s, remembers the gun battery story from being a kid too.

The archaeological strategy document for Sunderland states that the John Paul Jones Battery was 'later known as' the Black Cat Battery. Which suggests that they think there's decent evidence for that (although I wouldn't necessarily rely on them!).

By the way, there's a new series of Ancient Apocalypse on Netflix. Should be worth a laugh, sorry, I mean should be interesting!

 

[FellTop]

I agree with you. I think oral traditions are important.

The story that the name comes from a cat at the club's ground is, as far as I can tell, also an oral tradition. I've seen several different versions (a cat was found in the dressing room after a bad run of defeats and results improved thereafter; the same thing but a cat ran across the pitch; a cat used to live at Roker Park and slept on the crossbar when no one was there) and several different dates applied to them, the most recent being the 1960s. The gun battery being the ultimate origin of the name is a much more consistent story, and therefore more believable.

I think the photos of players and board members with black cats, and other uses of that imagery in other places, raise more questions than they provide answers. Why did FW Taylor appear in a photo with a black cat in 1905? And then why did Hogg appear in a photo with the same imagery four years later? To me, it all suggests that there was already an established link for that imagery to be chosen.

Funnily enough, my dad, who's in his 70s, remembers the gun battery story from being a kid too.

The archaeological strategy document for Sunderland states that the John Paul Jones Battery was 'later known as' the Black Cat Battery. Which suggests that they think there's decent evidence for that (although I wouldn't necessarily rely on them!).

By the way, there's a new series of Ancient Apocalypse on Netflix. Should be worth a laugh, sorry, I mean should be interesting!

I might have watched the first 3 episodes of Graham and his big chase. Even by my standards I think he might be reaching for reachimg sake so far.

Mind you, he has Keano Reeves as an ally. I am assuming Keano still has access to his time machine and has been back beyond the younger dryas and seen the giants and atlantians. Therefore it must be true