What's in a (nick) name?

[The Norton Cat]

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This is the sort of thing that gets under my skin because I hate inaccuracy but does anyone else have any thoughts about this?

I have always held it to be true that the name comes from the 18th century gun battery that stood on the south dock or pier (I think). It was originally called the Paul Jones Battery but became known as the Black Cat Battery due to one of its crew being frightened by something at night, which he took to be the devil but turned out to just be a black cat. The name stuck, the black cat became a bit of a local emblem or talisman, and was naturally adopted by the football club or its supporters (not the actual cat, it would have been long dead by the time the club was founded, but the black cat as a symbol).

There is a local football/history website (I won't name them because I've argued with them before on Twitter as I think they get a lot of stuff wrong) who claim that no one linked the club's nickname with the gun battery until about 2000, but I distinctly remember reading this version in the 'Sunderland Annual 1990.' I've probably still got it somewhere.

 

[FellTop]

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This is the sort of thing that gets under my skin because I hate inaccuracy but does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I have always held it to be true that the name comes from the 18th century gun battery that stood on the south dock or pier (I think). It was originally called the Paul Jones Battery but became known as the Black Cat Battery due to one of its crew being frightened by something at night, which he took to be the devil but turned out to just be a black cat. The name stuck, the black cat became a bit of a local emblem or talisman, and was naturally adopted by the football club or its supporters (not the actual cat, it would have been long dead by the time the club was founded, but the black cat as a symbol).

There is a local football/history website (and I won't name them because I've argued with them before on Twitter as I think they get a lot of stuff wrong) who claim that no one linked the club's nickname with the gun battery until about 2000 but I distinctly remember reading this version in the 'Sunderland Annual 1990'. I've probably still got it somewhere.

I always understood it to be related to the gun battery too. Then it seemed to get traction again in 73 with the lucky black cat thing.

 

[Evil Jimmy Krankie]

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This is the sort of thing that gets under my skin because I hate inaccuracy but does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I have always held it to be true that the name comes from the 18th century gun battery that stood on the south dock or pier (I think). It was originally called the Paul Jones Battery but became known as the Black Cat Battery due to one of its crew being frightened by something at night, which he took to be the devil but turned out to just be a black cat. The name stuck, the black cat became a bit of a local emblem or talisman, and was naturally adopted by the football club or its supporters (not the actual cat, it would have been long dead by the time the club was founded, but the black cat as a symbol).

There is a local football/history website (and I won't name them because I've argued with them before on Twitter as I think they get a lot of stuff wrong) who claim that no one linked the club's nickname with the gun battery until about 2000 but I distinctly remember reading this version in the 'Sunderland Annual 1990'. I've probably still got it somewhere.

From listening to that report, I don’t think Frankie actually said or implied that the black cat at the cup final was the reason for the nickname. He did say the name has been synonymous with the club throughout its history.
You will probably know more than me here but is it a matter of record that the battery was unofficially called the ‘black cat battery’? Even if it is it doesn’t necessarily follow that that’s the reason for the clubs nickname. It’s a nice story but I suspect that the original reason is lost in history. Just because you hold your version to be true doesn’t necessarily make it so.

 

[Southern A]

It confuses my wife no end why we are called the black cats but don’t play in black.

Are there any other football club nicknames with a colour in them, where that colour isn’t one of the main colours the team play in?

 

[Expat-Cat]

The problem is that the gun battery ceased to exist 100+ years before the founding of SAFC. There is no evidence of this being the origin on the nickname until much more recent times. However there exist photos, newspaper articles and drawings from around 1909 to show there was a black cat "adopted" by the club and players, and it was this that created the name.
http://ryehillfootball.co.uk/stories/the-original-sunderland-black-cat/
https://www.roker-roar.com/navbar/blackcats.html

 

[The Norton Cat]

From listening to that report, I don’t think Frankie actually said or implied that the black cat at the cup final was the reason for the nickname. He did say the name has been synonymous with the club throughout its history.
You will probably know more than me here but is it a matter of record that the battery was unofficially called the ‘black cat battery’? Even if it is it doesn’t necessarily follow that that’s the reason for the clubs nickname. It’s a nice story but I suspect that the original reason is lost in history. Just because you hold your version to be true doesn’t necessarily make it so.

No, he didn't say the black cat at the 37 cup final was the reason. He didn't actually give an explanation. Which is mainly what irritates me because now there will be a load of people who didn't listen to it properly going round saying that the reason is that some kid took a cat to the cup final.

I think its fairly well-known that the gun battery was known as the Black Cat. It doesn't necessarily follow that the name transferred to the football club, that's true. But, local legends like that tend to stick around in the folk memory and the club's first ground at the Blue House Field wasn't far away, particularly if the gun battery was at the south dock, rather than the south pier.

 

[The Norton Cat]

The problem is that the gun battery ceased to exist 100+ years before the founding of SAFC. There is no evidence of this being the origin on the nickname until much more recent times. However there exist photos, newspaper articles and drawings from around 1909 to show there was a black cat "adopted" by the club and players, and it was this that created the name.
http://ryehillfootball.co.uk/stories/the-original-sunderland-black-cat/
https://www.roker-roar.com/navbar/blackcats.html

True about the gap between the gun battery ceasing to exist and the club being founded but, like I say, these things stick in the folk memory.
EDIT: The John Paul Jones Battery (which became known as the Black Cat in 1805) potentially stood until the 1840s (as late as 1848), which is when the nearby Coney Warren Battery was removed by the Sunderland Dock Coy during renovation. If that's the case, the gun battery was present within living memory of the foundation date of the club.


The Ryehill article, I believe, is wrong in saying that the link between gun battery and club wasn't made until 2000 because, as I said, I believe that the 'Sunderland Annual 1990' carried the gun battery explanation. I don't really trust their research I'm afraid. For example, I think their assertion about the date the club was founded is misinterpretation of the evidence.

That's not to say that the gun battery is the reason, or at least not the sole reason. I think there is a logical connection there. Much more logical than stating that there is no connection. The names of places tend to stick around long after the thing that gave them their name has gone (there's a road junction near where I live now named after a pub but the pub has been gone donkey's years). I think the most likely thing is that the name stuck around, someone made a connection and ran with it. I mean, why did Billy Hogg choose to be photographed with a black cat and not some other lucky charm?

 

[Southern A]

When I was little I genuinely thought we were called the Black Cats because the only time I ever went on the "Black Cat Roundabout" was when we drove up to Durham and Sunderland to see relatives and go to the games.

The fact the Black Cat roundabout is all the way down in Bedfordshire was lost on 8 year old me.

 

[The Norton Cat]

When I was little I genuinely thought we were called the Black Cats because the only time I ever went on the "Black Cat Roundabout" was when we drove up to Durham and Sunderland to see relatives and go to the games.

The fact the Black Cat roundabout is all the way down in Bedfordshire was lost on 8 year old me.

Bloody hate that roundabout. Have they finished the roadworks on it yet?

 

[Southern A]

Bloody hate that roundabout. Have they finished the roadworks on it yet?

Wikipedia says 2026!!!

 

[The Norton Cat]

Wikipedia says 2026!!!

Bloody hell! I'm glad I don't have to use it as often as I used to.

 

[marcusblackcat]

We were the rokerites when I was growing up but affectionately known as the black cats.

 

[RTB]

If only Billy Hogg was alive to tell the tale…

Hogg remained with Sunderland until May 1909. In his final season with the Roker Park club, he scored two hat-tricks in a fortnight,[1] the first away to Woolwich Arsenal on 21st November with the second coming on 5th December, in a 9–1 victory at St James' Park against bitter local rivals Newcastle United, with the other goals coming from George Holley (another hat-trick), Arthur Bridgett (two) and Jackie Mordue.[2]

 

[The Norton Cat]

"Another legend has it that many years ago, during a bad spell, a black cat crossed the pitch during a match and changed the club’s luck. However, it is not superstition that gave rise to the present nickname. It originates from the 18th century when a battery of guns protecting the mouth of the River Wear bore the name , their shape being resemblant to the silhouettes of black cats."

This, of course, isn't definitive evidence but it provides another possibility and another, slightly different, link to the gun battery.

From here:https://thebeautifulhistory.wordpress.com/clubs/sunderland/

This is probably the most balanced explanation that I've seen, indicating that the black cat was an established local symbol, due to the gun battery, that was later adopted by the club. Again though, not definitive evidence:

"The black cat has a link with Sunderland going back to 1805 when a gun battery on the river Wear was renamed The Black Cat, after men manning the station heard a mysterious meow from a wailing black cat. A hundred years later, in 1905, a black cat was pictured sitting on a football next to Chairman FW Taylor, and three years later a black cat turned up on a team photograph. Black cats started turning up everywhere, in Sunderland AFC related cartoons, in matchday programs, on tie pins worn at an FA Cup Final, but black cat folklore was finally sealed when twelve-year-old Billy Morris was believed to bring Sunderland luck by having a black cat sat in his pocket throughout the 1937 Wembley Cup Final, when Sunderland came from behind to beat Preston 3-1. After the win, a black cat was fed and watered at Roker Park for many years."

From: https://whatsbehindthebadge.com/index.php/sunderland-a-f-c/

 

[marcusblackcat]

If only Billy Hogg was alive to tell the tale…

Hogg remained with Sunderland until May 1909. In his final season with the Roker Park club, he scored two hat-tricks in a fortnight,[1] the first away to Woolwich Arsenal on 21 November with the second coming on 5 December, in a 9–1 victory at St James' Park over bitter local rivals Newcastle United, with the other goals coming from George Holley (another hat-trick), Arthur Bridgett (two) and Jackie Mordue.[2]

If you ask the mags of the day, they said it was down to Mike Ashley, and poor refereeing….

 

[Brainy Dose]

If you ask the mags of the day, they said it was down to Mike Ashley, and poor refereeing….

 

[Expat-Cat]

True about the gap between the gun battery ceasing to exist and the club being founded but, like I say, these things stick in the folk memory.
EDIT: The John Paul Jones Battery (which became known as the Black Cat in 1805) potentially stood until the 1840s (as late as 1848), which is when the nearby Coney Warren Battery was removed by the Sunderland Dock Coy during renovation. If that's the case, the gun battery was present within living memory of the foundation date of the club.


The Ryehill article, I believe, is wrong in saying that the link between gun battery and club wasn't made until 2000 because, as I said, I believe that the 'Sunderland Annual 1990' carried the gun battery explanation. I don't really trust their research I'm afraid. For example, I think their assertion about the date the club was founded is misinterpretation of the evidence.

That's not to say that the gun battery is the reason, or at least not the sole reason. I think there is a logical connection there. Much more logical than stating that there is no connection. The names of places tend to stick around long after the thing that gave them their name has gone (there's a road junction near where I live now named after a pub but the pub has been gone donkey's years). I think the most likely thing is that the name stuck around, someone made a connection and ran with it. I mean, why did Billy Hogg choose to be photographed with a black cat and not some other lucky charm?

we could have been the Rabbits Foot team Looks line a cat "moved in" as a mouser and it was black, and then got adopted.

Speculation is fine, but the earliest documented links are those around 1909. Can anyone find any mention of Black Cats linked to Sunderland from that period (in any circumstance, not just football)? The battery was south of the river, later had barracks built on/near the site. Sunderland football club was always north of the river and in the early days was founded by teachers; no military link.

2000 or 1990 for the first mention does not really matter. Both are too late, i.e. too big a gap (from 1909) with no other mentions of this link. Or can anyone find any?

So could the name be linked to the battery, well yes. But there is no actual evidence other than coincidence. I think we have to leave the "jury out" for now!

A link to the original research work cited in the other links. The "blackcats.org.uk" site no longer exists, so this is from the web archive.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140624222002/http://blackcats.org.uk/cat-history.html

an excerpt:
In January 1909, Sunderland were going through what was for them a relatively lean spell. It had been seven years since we had won the League, and the team which was to win the Championship with a record number of points and get to the Cup Final in 1913 was only just starting to come together.

A 4-1 home defeat to Liverpool on New Years Day 1909 left the club in the bottom half of the First Division. When the players came into the dressing room the following day before the game against Bury, they found a stray black cat in residence.

Sunderland won 3-1 that day, despite Harry Low missing a penalty, and this coincidence started the "lucky black cat" story. A fortnight later when we went to Bramall Lane and won 3-2 in the FA Cup after being 0-2 down in the second half, the feline mascot was offically adopted by the players.

By the end of January 1909, the Sunderland Echo reported of the cat: "there has been a big demand for its portrait, more having been disposed of than of all the players put together". The thousands who went to Newcastle for the FA Cup quarter final that season had black cat mascots adorned with red and white ribbons.

 

[The Legendary Tongue]

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[The Legendary Tongue]

It was way before ‘73.
I need to get into the loft and dig out my ‘79 centenary book, it might be mentioned in there.

 

[The Legendary Tongue]

we could have been the Rabbits Foot team Looks line a cat "moved in" as a mouser and it was black, and then got adopted.

Speculation is fine, but the earliest documented links are those around 1909. Can anyone find any mention of Black Cats linked to Sunderland from that period (in any circumstance, not just football)? The battery was south of the river, later had barracks built on/near the site. Sunderland football club was always north of the river and in the early days was founded by teachers; no military link.

2000 or 1990 for the first mention does not really matter. Both are too late, i.e. too big a gap (from 1909) with no other mentions of this link. Or can anyone find any?

So could the name be linked to the battery, well yes. But there is no actual evidence other than coincidence. I think we have to leave the "jury out" for now!

A link to the original research work cited in the other links. The "blackcats.org.uk" site no longer exists, so this is from the web archive.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140624222002/http://blackcats.org.uk/cat-history.html

an excerpt:
In January 1909, Sunderland were going through what was for them a relatively lean spell. It had been seven years since we had won the League, and the team which was to win the Championship with a record number of points and get to the Cup Final in 1913 was only just starting to come together.

A 4-1 home defeat to Liverpool on New Years Day 1909 left the club in the bottom half of the First Division. When the players came into the dressing room the following day before the game against Bury, they found a stray black cat in residence.

Sunderland won 3-1 that day, despite Harry Low missing a penalty, and this coincidence started the "lucky black cat" story. A fortnight later when we went to Bramall Lane and won 3-2 in the FA Cup after being 0-2 down in the second half, the feline mascot was offically adopted by the players.

By the end of January 1909, the Sunderland Echo reported of the cat: "there has been a big demand for its portrait, more having been disposed of than of all the players put together". The thousands who went to Newcastle for the FA Cup quarter final that season had black cat mascots adorned with red and white ribbons.

We haven’t always been North of the river, mate. Take a walk along to the Raich Carter Centre, there’s a plaque nearby for the Blue House playing field, that was our original home.