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SIR_KENNY_KLOPP_KING

SIR_KENNY_KLOPP_KING

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2011
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At the beginning of the season, Chelsea were playing some really good football, attractive to watch, incisive stuff. Built on a solid defence, as you'd expect from a Mourinho team, they were taking teams apart with Fabregas, in particular pulling the string with a massive number of assists and a few goals. Now I can't say that I watched every minute of your games so perhaps it was just perception.

Roll on a few months and my perception has changed dramatically; it's almost as though Mourinho doesn't believe in entertainment, you've become more defensive minded, Fabregas is sitting much deeper and with much less attacking threat and certainly much less attractive to watch. And it's not just in the CL.

Is this normal? As we near the end of a season does Mourinho protect what he has? Does he really have a 'don't lose' attitude rather a 'let's win' one? I don't dislike Mourinho btw, his record in this league speaks for itself but I was surprised by yesterdays performance. I thought it was an ugly, inept performance. I actually expected a bit more from Chelsea.....in fact I they cost me my accumulator (£320)....but that aside.

I can't see you losing the premiership from here as you've no real challenger this year. Everyone has been erratic and this in itself is enough for you to win it easily but good luck for the double anyway <ok>
 
I think Jose, borne out of a desire to win and a relative dry spell trophies wise for him of late has certainly approached big games with a don't lose rather than go and win attitude. He's coming across as more desperate than ever to win things.

We were ahead 3 times in that tie with PSG and never at any point did you think we'd kick on and go and win the game. Instead we were overly cautious and defensive like we've been in countless domestic games this season to. We got away with it at Anfield twice, Upton Park and in to lesser extent at Wembley but with a more positive attitude the league would be done. We should have beaten City and United away this season and Burnley at home. That's 6 points dropped and we'd be a further 9 points clear.

Players are starting to burn out. Just hoping that now we're effectively on 1 game a week until the end of the season that we can manage the squad.
 
In the summer, Rambo and Oscar need to go.
Also Drogba, thanks and all that Didier, but we need a shake up.

With those 3 gone, we need a new midfielder, and a striker.
The striker will be 2nd or 3rd fiddle, so not expecting a worldie.
The midfielder however, I want an awesome one. One that can play along side Matic and own.
If we are playing Fab as a 10, then we need a middle of the park warrior (someone like Arturo Vidal, not that we'd get him, but someone of that mould).
Also a couple of decent signings to flesh out the squad wouldnt go a miss.

I am thinking 4 signings, 3 departures.
Only big money move should be the midfielder. Rest should be £10-15m squaddies.
If we get decent money for Rambo and Oscar (Say £30-£40m, not each but for the pair), it shouldnt break the bank either.
 
Bodanki' said:
In the summer, Rambo and Oscar need to go.
Also Drogba, thanks and all that Didier, but we need a shake up.

With those 3 gone, we need a new midfielder, and a striker.
The striker will be 2nd or 3rd fiddle, so not expecting a worldie.
The midfielder however, I want an awesome one. One that can play along side Matic and own.
If we are playing Fab as a 10, then we need a middle of the park warrior (someone like Arturo Vidal, not that we'd get him, but someone of that mould).
Also a couple of decent signings to flesh out the squad wouldnt go a miss.

I am thinking 4 signings, 3 departures.
Only big money move should be the midfielder. Rest should be £10-15m squaddies.
If we get decent money for Rambo and Oscar (Say £30-£40m, not each but for the pair), it shouldnt break the bank either.
Click to expand...

Do you think that, even if you buy those players, that Mourinho won't revert to his 'we won't lose' tactics like we saw last nigh/in the final (btw, I think in the final his tactics were spot on....it was a boring game but give me the cup any day!) - Is he/will he ever be the coach that will give you free flowing football? We saw some great stuff from Chelsea early in the season but this has been stifled more recently......which is a shame i think.
 
KENNY_KOP_KING said:
Do you think that, even if you buy those players, that Mourinho won't revert to his 'we won't lose' tactics like we saw last nigh/in the final (btw, I think in the final his tactics were spot on....it was a boring game but give me the cup any day!) - Is he/will he ever be the coach that will give you free flowing football? We saw some great stuff from Chelsea early in the season but this has been stifled more recently......which is a shame i think.
Click to expand...

Not if he wants to keep his job.
The Everton game **** Jose up, even though we won by 3 goals (3-6) he was pissed in the interview.
He doesnt like conceding.
He wants disciplined defences and a nice tidy 1-0 or 2-0 win.
 
Think the problems last night stemmed from Mourinho and his philosophy. You have a brilliant team - certainly better than PSG (though it's close enough) but they never actually played near their potential. Hazard and Fabregas walked around all night.

The synchronised way in which Chelsea players blocked the referee from PSG players then called for medical help - embarrassing. If you watch it, it's as if they take Oscar's ridiculous spinning top roulette as a cue ('this is our chance').

Unlike others I don't think Mourinho has them in a room beforehand telling them to cheat - but I do think the players have an idea of what he wants and were attempting to play the situation as he'd want them to.

Fact is when you approach games with a 'don't lose' approach it will eventually backfire. A talented side can be very successful with it - as you saw vs us last season, in your CL win, in Inter's, with Greece. But when it doesn't work it shows its ugliness.

Wanted you to win last night for the sake of the PL but by the end I didn't care. Very few Chelsea players can hold their heads up - one being Costa who at least looked like he cared. We can all say Mourinho is one of the best and point to his record, but nights like this remind you that if everyone played like Mourinho, would we bother to watch football at all?
 
Bodanki' said:
Not if he wants to keep his job.
The Everton game **** Jose up, even though we won by 3 goals (3-6) he was pissed in the interview.
He doesnt like conceding.
He wants disciplined defences and a nice tidy 1-0 or 2-0 win.
Click to expand...

I get the risk adverseness to some degree, in big games anyway.....and he's a winner. But as a fan, give me a 6-3 win everyday....IF (and it's a big if) you can get me titles and trophies too. City did it last year.....In the end, the cavalier approach scuppered our title ambitions last year and I wished for a Jose type set up on that day when all we needed was a draw.....so it doesn't always pay.....but if you can be more entertaining 90% of the time and still get results, as fans, we'd all take it wouldn't we?
 
Cant disagree with any of the comments. I think Liverpool fans can certainly see the merit in setting up not to lose in certain situations as you'd have won the title had Brendan taken this approach against us an Anfield last year (in all likelihood). But I think we're getting tired of these tactics getting rolled out practically every game now we're at the business end.

Somewhere between Jose's approach and that of say Wenger/Rodgers/Pelligrini is probably the ideal way unless you have absolute world beaters like Real, Barca and Bayern. All managers are stubborn though and will be shown up from time to time, last night was Jose's.
 
chelsea - over 100 years of history said:
Cant disagree with any of the comments. I think Liverpool fans can certainly see the merit in setting up not to lose in certain situations as you'd have won the title had Brendan taken this approach against us an Anfield last year (in all likelihood). But I think we're getting tired of these tactics getting rolled out practically every game now we're at the business end.

Somewhere between Jose's approach and that of say Wenger/Rodgers/Pelligrini is probably the ideal way unless you have absolute world beaters like Real, Barca and Bayern. All managers are stubborn though and will be shown up from time to time, last night was Jose's.
Click to expand...

Exactly, there are times when its necessary and times when it isn't.
Last night was one of those times when it isn't.
 
Bodanki' said:
Exactly, there are times when its necessary and times when it isn't.
Last night was one of those times when it isn't.
Click to expand...

You certainly cant do it both legs in a 2 leg affair. You either go out guns blazing in the away leg to get the away goals, or keep it tight and go for the win at home.

We just got an early goal in Paris and spent the rest of the tie trying to protect it. It was only actually in the last 5 minutes of 3 1/2 hours of football that we were heading out but were also only a goal away from heading out from when Cavani scored. It was always very tight, the tactics were high risk and failed.

Certainly our best champions league performances have tended to be when we've been behind and had to go for it in the second leg (Napoli, PSG last year, Barca 4-2)
 
chelsea - over 100 years of history said:
You certainly cant do it both legs in a 2 leg affair. You either go out guns blazing in the away leg to get the away goals, or keep it tight and go for the win at home.

We just got an early goal in Paris and spent the rest of the tie trying to protect it. It was only actually in the last 5 minutes of 3 1/2 hours of football that we were heading out but were also only a goal away from heading out from when Cavani scored. It was always very tight, the tactics were high risk and failed.

Certainly our best champions league performances have tended to be when we've been behind and had to go for it in the second leg (Napoli, PSG last year, Barca 4-2)
Click to expand...

Ironically, I think that your tactics were risk averse and nearly worked. You certainly didn't go out and try to put the game to bed and thus take risks yourself.....I'm not saying that it's always a bad think but yesterday was far from high risk in terms of tactics. Jose would have been very happy with a 0-0.
 
These past few months have actually been the first time I've ever been bored actually watching Chelsea play. I genuinely consider it a chore now, and it's all down to Mourinho and his negative tactics. His win at all cost approach is ironically costing us games and possible titles. We have some of the best attacking players in the world, most of whom he has bought himself, so why doesn't he trust them to go out there and win a game by playing football? Instead he's content with defending deep and nicking a goal from a set-piece. Hopefully this deserved and embarrassing loss will give a kick up the arse to Jose and the players that things need to change. They need to go out there and take matches by the scruff of the neck if they want to win the league, rather then trying to "out-defend" the opposition.

In terms of what I would like to see for the future:

1. Start playing Filipe Luis at LB - He offers so much more then Azpi going forward, who is held back by being right-footed.

2. Start using Cuadrado at RW - Now this may be because he hasn't settled in yet but we've hardly seen him this season. I much prefer the Fiorentina Cuadrado to our current Willian. He has that direct attacking power that we need, which is much more preferable to Willian's "run at defender, stop, pass it anywhere but forward."

3. Buy a new world-class #10 - Fabregas is wasted there and Oscar is far too inconsistent. We need someone who can find that final ball, but also has the speed and finishing to get on the end of them himself. Could go down the Matic route and bring back De Bruyne, though I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't want to come back.

4. Remove the deadwood - Ramires and Drogba need to go. If a decent offer (£30m) came in for Oscar I'd happily see him go too, though I'd prefer to have 2 natural #10's in the squad. I'd be happy to keep Mikel if he is solely used as Matic's back-up.

5. Flesh out the squad - Currently Jose seems to just use a select number of versitile players (roughly 18) who he trusts, instead of the full 25-man squad at his disposal. This is detrimental in my opinion, as these players end up playing a stupidly high number of games and sometimes in positions where they aren't nearly as effective (eg. Fab @ #10 or Oscar @ RW). We need a strong 25-man squad if we are going to compete successfully on all fronts. I believe we need a new young 4 choice CB, merely a back-up, could easily be a youth player. A new LB to understudy Luis. A couple of new center mid's, the most important being one who can take over Fabregas' role if he's injured or suspended. A new back-up winger as we are incredibly short there. A new wold-class #10 to slot into the first team. And finally a new 3rd choice striker, which promotes Remy to #2.

25-Man Squad

Courtois, Cech, Blackman | Terry, Cahill, Zouma, New CB | Luis, New LB, Azpilicueta, Ivanovic | Matic, Mikel, Fabregas, New CM, New CM | Cuadrado, Willian, Hazard, New LW | Oscar, New #10 | Costa, Remy, New Striker.

Obviously we have players out on loan who could be used to flesh out the squad, like Van Ginkel and Bamford. Could also use the U21 players to take up spots if you want to keep the squad small, which Jose does.
 
KENNY_KOP_KING said:
Ironically, I think that your tactics were risk averse and nearly worked. You certainly didn't go out and try to put the game to bed and thus take risks yourself.....I'm not saying that it's always a bad think but yesterday was far from high risk in terms of tactics. Jose would have been very happy with a 0-0.
Click to expand...

I suppose it's how you look at it. I agree I think Jose set up to take a 0-0 and if we got a goal on the break then great. However that's effectively setting up to play 90 minutes to stop a very good side in PSG scoring, that for me is the high risk.

I think when PSG went down to 10, most Chelsea fans would have thought, right lets wear them down, keep the ball and eventually win say 2-0. Really didn't pan out like that. Part PSG's approach, part negative approach from us.
 
tjblonks said:
These past few months have actually been the first time I've ever been bored actually watching Chelsea play. I genuinely consider it a chore now, and it's all down to Mourinho and his negative tactics. His win at all cost approach is ironically costing us games and possible titles. We have some of the best attacking players in the world, most of whom he has bought himself, so why doesn't he trust them to go out there and win a game by playing football? Instead he's content with defending deep and nicking a goal from a set-piece. Hopefully this deserved and embarrassing loss will give a kick up the arse to Jose and the players that things need to change. They need to go out there and take matches by the scruff of the neck if they want to win the league, rather then trying to "out-defend" the opposition.

In terms of what I would like to see for the future:

1. Start playing Filipe Luis at LB - He offers so much more then Azpi going forward, who is held back by being right-footed.

2. Start using Cuadrado at RW - Now this may be because he hasn't settled in yet but we've hardly seen him this season. I much prefer the Fiorentina Cuadrado to our current Willian. He has that direct attacking power that we need, which is much more preferable to Willian's "run at defender, stop, pass it anywhere but forward."

3. Buy a new world-class #10 - Fabregas is wasted there and Oscar is far too inconsistent. We need someone who can find that final ball, but also has the speed and finishing to get on the end of them himself. Could go down the Matic route and bring back De Bruyne, though I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't want to come back.

4. Remove the deadwood - Ramires and Drogba need to go. If a decent offer (£30m) came in for Oscar I'd happily see him go too, though I'd prefer to have 2 natural #10's in the squad. I'd be happy to keep Mikel if he is solely used as Matic's back-up.

5. Flesh out the squad - Currently Jose seems to just use a select number of versitile players (roughly 18) who he trusts, instead of the full 25-man squad at his disposal. This is detrimental in my opinion, as these players end up playing a stupidly high number of games and sometimes in positions where they aren't nearly as effective (eg. Fab @ #10 or Oscar @ RW). We need a strong 25-man squad if we are going to compete successfully on all fronts. I believe we need a new young 4 choice CB, merely a back-up, could easily be a youth player. A new LB to understudy Luis. A couple of new center mid's, the most important being one who can take over Fabregas' role if he's injured or suspended. A new back-up winger as we are incredibly short there. A new wold-class #10 to slot into the first team. And finally a new 3rd choice striker, which promotes Remy to #2.

25-Man Squad

Courtois, Cech, Blackman | Terry, Cahill, Zouma, New CB | Luis, New LB, Azpilicueta, Ivanovic | Matic, Mikel, Fabregas, New CM, New CM | Cuadrado, Willian, Hazard, New LW | Oscar, New #10 | Costa, Remy, New Striker.

Obviously we have players out on loan who could be used to flesh out the squad, like Van Ginkel and Bamford. Could also use the U21 players to take up spots if you want to keep the squad small, which Jose does.
Click to expand...


A lot of what you say makes sense but it just won't happen. Jose will always have his untouchables and 2-3 others floating around the edges. When players like Mata, Schurrle, Remy, Luis can (or could) barely get a kick then you know squad rotation is just not on the cards.

Generally I think the personnel is fine. You can always tune and freshen things up but we've seen how good we can be as recently as the Swansea game, we just need to approach games slightly differently. A team of our calibre should have games won by half time a lot more often than it is happening now, especially at home.

I think we're lucky this year the other good sides have had bad spells allowing us to have this lead. But it's been a long time since we had a good run of form.
 
tjblonks said:
These past few months have actually been the first time I've ever been bored actually watching Chelsea play. I genuinely consider it a chore now, and it's all down to Mourinho and his negative tactics. His win at all cost approach is ironically costing us games and possible titles. We have some of the best attacking players in the world, most of whom he has bought himself, so why doesn't he trust them to go out there and win a game by playing football? Instead he's content with defending deep and nicking a goal from a set-piece. Hopefully this deserved and embarrassing loss will give a kick up the arse to Jose and the players that things need to change. They need to go out there and take matches by the scruff of the neck if they want to win the league, rather then trying to "out-defend" the opposition.

In terms of what I would like to see for the future:

1. Start playing Filipe Luis at LB - He offers so much more then Azpi going forward, who is held back by being right-footed.
Can see your point here, Azpi is a great player though, we should definitely rotate this position more though depending on the opposition.

2. Start using Cuadrado at RW - Now this may be because he hasn't settled in yet but we've hardly seen him this season. I much prefer the Fiorentina Cuadrado to our current Willian. He has that direct attacking power that we need, which is much more preferable to Willian's "run at defender, stop, pass it anywhere but forward."
Agree on the Willian thing, he is an awesome runner and has a great work rate, but he needs to sort out his vision and passing range. Never watched Cuadrado in Italy so cannot comment on that part though

3. Buy a new world-class #10 - Fabregas is wasted there and Oscar is far too inconsistent. We need someone who can find that final ball, but also has the speed and finishing to get on the end of them himself. Could go down the Matic route and bring back De Bruyne, though I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't want to come back.
You mean someone who is kick ass number 10. We haven't sold any of those recently have we? *cough* Juan Mata

4. Remove the deadwood - Ramires and Drogba need to go. If a decent offer (£30m) came in for Oscar I'd happily see him go too, though I'd prefer to have 2 natural #10's in the squad. I'd be happy to keep Mikel if he is solely used as Matic's back-up.
Agree 100%

5. Flesh out the squad - Currently Jose seems to just use a select number of versitile players (roughly 18) who he trusts, instead of the full 25-man squad at his disposal. This is detrimental in my opinion, as these players end up playing a stupidly high number of games and sometimes in positions where they aren't nearly as effective (eg. Fab @ #10 or Oscar @ RW). We need a strong 25-man squad if we are going to compete successfully on all fronts. I believe we need a new young 4 choice CB, merely a back-up, could easily be a youth player. A new LB to understudy Luis. A couple of new center mid's, the most important being one who can take over Fabregas' role if he's injured or suspended. A new back-up winger as we are incredibly short there. A new wold-class #10 to slot into the first team. And finally a new 3rd choice striker, which promotes Remy to #2.

Again, in 100% agreement

Obviously we have players out on loan who could be used to flesh out the squad, like Van Ginkel and Bamford. Could also use the U21 players to take up spots if you want to keep the squad small, which Jose does.
Click to expand...
 
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