Weekend Debate

[esteponawhite]

Well another dogshyt night for the 23s after taking ghe lead at ER in front of 9,000 fans. We take off Cresswell at half time and Summerville and the wheels fall off ends 2-4 to Arsenal. Max Dean isnt Joffy and fair play to him for scoring tonight and Sam Greenwood who was playing at 10 but we cannot compete in this league with one hand behind our backs

Thanks for the update doc.
Score is irrelevant in these games, much better for the kids playing at ER in front of fans than at TA.

 

[Whitejock]

So in your opinion, a player who you describe as a revelation in the No'8 role is not expected to chip in with a few goals ?

Good job...as he's never scored for us.

Who Roberts? I thought he scored last season?

In actual fact, both have played a handful of games as a #8. Prior to that, Roberts was a 9 & 10; Forshaw was a traditional DM. But you knew that, didn't you? Shame for you that I did too.

 

[Jammy 07]

Who Roberts? I thought he scored last season?

In actual fact, both have played a handful of games as a #8. Prior to that, Roberts was a 9 & 10; Forshaw was a traditional DM. But you knew that, didn't you? Shame for you that I did too.

You seem obsessed with Roberts ?

My point is I'm not happy with having Forshaw as a No'8....whereas you think he's a revelation.

Maybe we now know who LeedsLover was all along ?

Well played Sir.

 

[Whitejock]

You seem obsessed with Roberts ?

My point is I'm not happy with having Forshaw as a No'8....whereas you think he's a revelation.

Maybe we know now who LeedsLover was all along ?

Well played Sir.

Revelation inasmuch that he seemed to play better there than the position we bought him for. Unlike Robberts, who came in as a 9 & manages to be worse as an 8 or 10.

Not obsessed with Robberts - his performances this season in particular have generated more discussion than any other player.

 

[Jammy 07]

Revelation inasmuch that he seemed to play better there than the position we bought him for. Unlike Robberts, who came in as a 9 & manages to be worse as an 8 or 10.

Not obsessed with Robberts - his performances this season in particular have generated more discussion than any other player.

So we agree then.

Forshaw was extremely average as a No'4 but slightly better at No'8.

Oh and that was in the championship remember.

 

[Whitejock]

So we agree then.

Forshaw was extremely average as a No'4 but slightly better at No'8.

Oh and that was in the championship remember.

Not quite - he was a good DM in the traditional sense. He couldn't do the KP creativity thing, & most annoyingly, if you recall, he didn't hold back as instructed when the FBs went on the rampage, causing us all sorts of defensive problems if they counter attacked. But yes, hardly a worldie.

As for him as a #8, the wonderment came from a standard DM playing very well as a #8. Bielsa was in the process of converting him (successfully, it seemed) until his hip injury put the kybosh on any progress.

 

[milkyboy]

Foreshaw was always considered an all rounder as a midfielder… at previous clubs he played dm/cm/am… don’t think we can credit mb with converting him, I think that versatility is part of why bielsa likes him.

I always liked him as a player on the rare occasions he was fit, tidy footballer… just lacked a bit of pace/mobility.

 

[Jammy 07]

Foreshaw was always considered an all rounder as a midfielder… at previous clubs he played dm/cm/am… don’t think we can credit mb with converting him, I think that versatility is part of why bielsa likes him.

I always liked him as a player on the rare occasions he was fit, tidy footballer… just lacked a bit of pace/mobility.

Agree, a tidy footballer...back, sideways, round, a llitle bit forwards but never defence splitting. Lacking pace as you say, which means he's unable to drive with the ball, doesn't score goals or provide assists but links the play well.

Nothing would please me more than Adam Forshaw playing in a Leeds victory and hopefully soon

 

[NostradEmus]

In Bielsa's second season he actually pushed Forshaw much further forward and it had a very good effect on the team dynamic. Bielsa himself said that Forshaw was the best player that season before his injury. He was certainly in the top 3 imo.

I also recall him being incredibly unlucky in front of goal and it was becoming a standing joke in the squad about him not scoring. The not scoring wasn't necessarily him being poor in front of goal but from memory alot of his chances were stopped by good saves or by missing the corner of the net by an inch.

That doesn't mean he will get 10 goals a season from 8 but he tends to play the easy pass and although that sounds boring it is exactly what we need right now as we can't keep hold of the ball as well as we used to. Him playing it steady as an 8 looked like it gave us more structure during the first half at Arsenal.

 

[Doc]

On being upset about how the clubs injury crisis has affected the whole academy, yes its not good. But as Jammy said we have to be happy that 4 or 5 23s have broken through. Yes agreed and on the other hand we will not have a successful season anywhere in the academy, but I dont think the 23s will be relegated.

the summer before last we invested in 4 top kids. Joffy, Greenwood, Summerville and Drameh. I believe 3 of those are now in Bielsas mind for first team. Sam Greenwood has played first team but not sure he has grabbed it? However an academy product Cresswell did grab it so at least 4 have done so and maybe 5, following Struijk the season before. So a great strike rate in reality….. all done because of injuries and a small squad.

Summer just gone we again invested in some top kids. Klaesson, Hjelde, McGurk, Miller and Bate. Klaesson was really to understudy Meslier but the other 4 were to enhance the 23s. Lewis Bate has been brilliant and stamping his authority on the team. Bielsa rates him highly. Amari Miller is now getting Bielsaball and can do on thee left what Summerville can so down the right.Sean McGurk is a very clever player who plays wide or as AM and he scores and creates. He was also at Liverpool with Joffy and both ended up at Wigan. Leo Hjelde is very highly rated as a CB and LB and we chased him for ages against many clubs, but we got him.

So I believe the transition for the latest group of 4 has been harder simply because this season our 23s are playing in the top league against Liverpool, Man Utd, Cheslea, Arsenal, Man City etc and yes if we could field our best 11 9 of them are recent recruits and we could stand our own in this company, but unfortunately due to other things we just have to accept maybe having an average season for a change but an excellent development season for 5 of the 23s

 

[FORZA LEEDS]

On being upset about how the clubs injury crisis has affected the whole academy, yes its not good. But as Jammy said we have to be happy that 4 or 5 23s have broken through. Yes agreed and on the other hand we will not have a successful season anywhere in the academy, but I dont think the 23s will be relegated.

the summer before last we invested in 4 top kids. Joffy, Greenwood, Summerville and Drameh. I believe 3 of those are now in Bielsas mind for first team. Sam Greenwood has played first team but not sure he has grabbed it? However an academy product Cresswell did grab it so at least 4 have done so and maybe 5, following Struijk the season before. So a great strike rate in reality….. all done because of injuries and a small squad.

Summer just gone we again invested in some top kids. Klaesson, Hjelde, McGurk, Miller and Bate. Klaesson was really to understudy Meslier but the other 4 were to enhance the 23s. Lewis Bate has been brilliant and stamping his authority on the team. Bielsa rates him highly. Amari Miller is now getting Bielsaball and can do on thee left what Summerville can so down the right.Sean McGurk is a very clever player who plays wide or as AM and he scores and creates. He was also at Liverpool with Joffy and both ended up at Wigan. Leo Hjelde is very highly rated as a CB and LB and we chased him for ages against many clubs, but we got him.

So I believe the transition for the latest group of 4 has been harder simply because this season our 23s are playing in the top league against Liverpool, Man Utd, Cheslea, Arsenal, Man City etc and yes if we could field our best 11 9 of them are recent recruits and we could stand our own in this company, but unfortunately due to other things we just have to accept maybe having an average season for a change but an excellent development season for 5 of the 23s

There’s also McKinstry who’s already played for the first team. And Bogusz may be back after getting his act together in Spain.

 

[Doc]

There’s also McKinstry who’s already played for the first team. And Bogusz may be back after getting his act together in Spain.

Got a feeling Bogusz and his agent are wanting out of Leeds. He was upset the club wouldnt sell him to Legia Warsaw and they also refused to loan him either. Funny that when you think having a player out on loan in a Champions League team getting top experience, but deciding to send him to the 3rd tier of Spanish football? I dont get that one but somebody at the club must know what they’re doing. If Bogusz is brought back in January you know he has a future, if not Bogusz will know he needs to leave. Still only 20 and as an 17/18yo he was the best midfielder in the 23s by a mile until he started getting snubbed by Corberan and then Bielsa. He was sent out on loan then and nothing has gone right until this season?

 

[Doc]

Player ratings from last night are in and there was a few shockers, but the best were:
Cresswell 8 for his first half performance then pulled off
Summerville 8 for his first half then pulled
Max Dean 8 well done kid a goal and one cleared off the line and a crossbar hit.
Greenwood 7
Bate 7
Miller 8

 

[ristac]

The u23s is such a strange one, I understand wages and football moving forward has dictated the changes over the years but I preferred it when it was U21s and reserve team football.

Now the two seem combined, the U21s used to be for developing your own talent, only Cresswell from the latest bunch falls into that bracket realistically Gelhardt, Drameh and Summerville were all signed because they were “ready made”.

Summerville had already played 21 games in the Dutch top flight and 18 games in their first division. Gelhardt 18 appearance in the Championship. Drameh is the one who’s took the biggest leap (out of our signings) from youth team football.

I’m sure the plan is to start genuinely bringing our own up through the ranks but when you spend £1m+ on a few young players for the u23s it’s a bit like doing a “Man City” in the PL

On Bogusz I read a bit the other day that he doesn’t want to return, of course that could swiftly change if this does end up being Bielsas final season

 

[milkyboy]

No team takes the u23 league seriously. It’s preparing players for the step up nothing more. You want your team to stay in the top flight, so they play against better players, so promotion last year was great. Avoiding relegation is important, but winning/losing the games? If it’s not the objective of the clubs it shouldn’t be consequential to fans.

 

[Doc]

No team takes the u23 league seriously. It’s preparing players for the step up nothing more. You want your team to stay in the top flight, so they play against better players, so promotion last year was great. Avoiding relegation is important, but winning/losing the games? If it’s not the objective of the clubs it shouldn’t be consequential to fans.

There is a lot of fact in this post from Milky, simply because most of the top teams in our league wont have any players anywhere near the first team. Man City use 2 of their 23s for first team cup games. But for most ofbthe top teams it seems to be all about making a profit on them. Remember it was only a year or 2 ago that Liverpool sold a useless U23 player to Sheff Utd for £27m and the poor kid has scored 1 goal in 2 seasons. We were quoted £10m for another and then quoted £20m for another. These top clubs receive big loan fees for these players who will never get to play for their own club. Chelsea had 54 kids out on loan not long ago, Man Utd have kids out everywhere even in Europe and none will ever play for their own club. When we send out our kids its with a hope they sort themselves out but not having much luck besides Bogusz. Davies may do it but he has to start soon. We will end up moving our failures on and making a few quid on them. But at least the Leeds plan is to produce some future first team players who will save the club tens of millions in transfer fees

 

[ellandback]

I've deleted a few posts.

I don't want any so called Super Mods sniffing about, and if anyone has any beef, go to the Politics thread

 

[Doc]

Klaesson had a bad game last night but DVDH gets an improved deal. Big things expected from him

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[Aski]

Interesting read on the BBC, something I never knew about our club, regarding Anthony Collins, who managed Rochdale to the League Cup Final back in 1962

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59031148

Whilst the whole article is both long and interesting, rather than just copy and paste the whole thing, I've just included the references to Leeds.

A frustrated tactician, Collins would take his inspiration from Brazil and continental Europe, attempting 4-2-4 and 3-3-1-3 formations, but a lack of funding meant the cup final was the ceiling.

It was Collins' ability to spot a player that meant Rochdale would be his last full-time managerial appointment.

To ensure he could still live at home in the Greater Manchester town it would be a backroom role that would elevate Collins to the legacy he has now.

In 1968 he found himself as assistant manager to Alan Dicks at Bristol City. He would also go up and down the country on scouting missions, with the press finding it unusual that Collins lived 180 miles from the club.

The situation he found himself in was good, his reputation was growing and this meant he was regularly called up for television interviews.

The scouting was working - players such as Gerry Gow, Tom Ritchie and Dickie Rooks were all signs of this, but similarly to Rochdale, boardroom struggles were problematic.

Collins elevated to chief scout at Leeds United under the great Don Revie, where he built a network of scouts 'spying' - as he called it - for him.

"He was just like a walking encyclopaedia," Sarita remembers.

"He would remember what happened in any game and I've spent many hours in the background listening to him on the phone going through it."

It was different 'spying' in Europe at the time. Language barriers and simply not knowing who players were was usually an issue for clubs but Collins understood the value of these reports.

"One of my most absorbing trips was to Hungary" he wrote in his notes.

"It was to watch our European second-round opponents Ujpest Dozsa. I had to go alone and do my own job, the club secretary and the public relations officer roles.

"In Europe, we have got to be right first time, especially when you take into consideration the money being spent on the trip and the prize that could be be at stake."

Collins' attention to detail helped Leeds reach the European Cup final under Jimmy Armfield in 1975, where they lost 2-0 to Bayern Munich amid a flurry of controversial refereeing decisions.

Now Revie was England manager and due to Collins' domestic and European pedigree, he enlisted his services on a national level for England, to be their 'master spy', compiling match and player reports to every last detail.

"He was just ahead of his time," says Sarita of her father, who passed away aged 94 in February. "If you compare with the video analysis now, where they can just freeze things and go back over and over again, he had one go in 90 minutes to do a player report."

Little was known about the inner workings of Football's Master Spy, the Football League's first black manager. This is how he worked best - in the shadows conducting business.

Collins' journey took him from organising friendlies against POWs in the war to European Cup finals, to the closest Rochdale have ever come to cup silverware.

Along the way, he inadvertently became a trailblazer.

 

[Doc]

I see Mitrovic has scored 18 goals in 15 games so far for Fulham this season. Hes 8 goals clear of anyone else in the Championship. If only we could get the odd ball into our striker I would be pleased

Elsewhere Kiko is having a great game for Elche again against his old outfit Real Madrid. Vinicius Junior has scored twice for Madrid but both unstoppable