The Russians are indeed masters of propaganda but theirs is only now dominant in Russia whereas it is Ukrainian propaganda which is winning everywhere else. I am just as horrified as you are by these atrocities Yorkie - the only difference is that I cannot see them coming to an end through the means that the West has chosen ie. the hope that the Ukraine will win and the Russians will return to Moscow with their tales between their legs - beaten and humiliated. It just isn't going to happen that way - and hoping for Putin's death or being deposed is also too much to hope for, at any rate that is out of our influence. So there must be another way - a negotiated peace can only be through both sides giving ground in some way. It would be good if some of those who just want Putin to lose could give some insight into how they think this could come to an end - maybe some kind of exit strategy, because at the moment there appears to be none. We appear to fighting a war without a war aim.
I'm going to row back a little on some of the things that I've said here. Nato has had a part in the build up to this and the history of the Ukraine and Russia is a complex one yet ultimately it was Putin who unleashed this war and he must be held responsible for it. Though many others have started wars and not been held accountable in the same way. And war is hell - it is hell because once started it has its own dynamic. You can make so many laws about what is allowed in war and what isn't but they will all be broken. Even the act of being a soldier is an unnatural thing - you are trained from day one to stay at a scene where you must either kill or die, where the natural thing to do would be to distance yourself from the situation. trained to shoot not out of personal animosity but simply because the one wearing the other uniform is supposed to be your enemy - but there is nothing personal in the exchange. So there is nothing human about war in fact it is geared to producing inhuman reactions. It's also very easy to start but much more difficult to end. There is also racism in every war because it's impossible to motivate an army by telling them that the enemy is full of people just like them - with brothers, wives children and all the rest. You have to convince them that the enemy is less worth or it doesn't work (only the FFL is different because they are all nationalities). So war is unnatural from day one. For those caught up in it - people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who were, simply caught up in someone else's history under one bright flag or another these are the ones who pay the price - not those who started it. At least in the Middle Ages those who started wars were meant to lead from the front - but civilization has distanced the 'starters' of wars further and further away from the carnage itself - so Putin will never have to actually witness a killing himself - he can just read the reports. The fact that the Americans have done the same doesn't excuse the present situation, even if I have implied that in previous posts - only Putin is responsible for this. Thus far I agree with you Yorkie - where we differ is in the means to bring this to an end. If that means giving Putin a little bit of success to crow about ie. a corner of the Ukraine which may be Russian anyway then so be it if the carnage can come to an end. I don't think this is a precedent because if he has any sense he will have realized that the Russian army is not up for this type of thing - at least not on foreign soil. . In the bad old middle ages he could have been required to go into one to one combat with Zelenskiy - but unfortunately history has moved on from that.
Do you think the Russians would lose a war without bringing in their heaviest weapons to save the situation ? They may have a battered army, or even one destroyed beyond repair, or even an economy reduced to early 20th Century standards - but they also have the World's biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons. No the ukraine does not belong to Russia - I have never said it does. But is has, nonetheless, only been a country for about 25 years. Actually Kiev was once Polish.
So, how many times has Russia threatened other countries with nuclear weapons - I'm sure you are dying to tell me. At the same time you can add up how many countries the USA has invaded since 1945. But this is not a matter of making comparisons between the USA and Russia - 2 wrongs don't make a right. i have stated my case more clearly in text 264 in reply to Yorkie and i don't want to repeat it here.
Time for Poland to show some restraint (that goes for the rest of NATO) but to redouble the effort to arm the Ukrainians with everything they need. We all knew putin's excuses were a sham. We perhaps didn't realise his army and equipment was quite so useless.You must log in or register to see media
So the Russian annexation defence on here wss made because 'poor Russian speakers were being oppressed by the nasty Ukrainian nazis'. Voting results in annexed Crimea were considered an excuse for Russia's brutal ethnic cleansing of Ukranian land.
Russia have now caused the death of innocent Polish civilians from their air strikes.
Time for war. I'm a pacifist but i'm up for it. This cannot go on any longer. Need to start jogging again before breakfast
