The use of the word 'nonsense' was meant to criticize your use of an analogy between the Russian populations of Finland and the Ukraine - in the former we are talking about a minute population whereas in the case of the Ukraine we are talking about 8 million - hardly a comparison. What Sweden and Finland do as far as Nato membership is concerned is their affair - personally I don't think it's necessary as they're both EU members and are military neutral. I think their membership could inflame the situation a bit without necessarily adding to their security. But that's their decision. At any rate neither of them will be in the situation of one part of the population imposing a decision on the other part as is the case in the Ukraine.I suggest that telling people their comments are nonsense does not help your argument.
The comparison with Finland is clear
I quote:
"!More than three-quarters of people in Finland now support joining NATO, a new poll showed Monday, after opinion on the military alliance flipped following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
Support for NATO membership used to be steady at 20-30 percent but has soared in Finland, as well as neighboring Sweden — both historically militarily non-aligned — in recent months.
Around 76 percent of Finns now want the country to join NATO, up from 60 percent in March, according to the poll commissioned by broadcaster YLE and conducted by research firm Taloustutkimus.
The survey also showed a majority in favor no matter the party alignment.
A separate poll last week showed most lawmakers in favor of joining, with 121 of the 200 MPs in favor and only 10 opposed."
and for Sweden:
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Clearly many Finns and Swedes don't see a Russian threat to their lands as nonsense
Off Topic Ukraine
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Are you trying to tell me there is no general opposition to Nato, or drive towards independence in those areas of the Ukraine with a Russian majority Yorkie - that it is all a result of the government in Moscow stirring the situation up ? Was it Russian interference which caused the democratically elected government of the Crimea to declare unilateral independence from an undemocratic situation in Kiev in 2014 - a coup which had binned their constitution ?
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
YES......
and a bit of info on the so called referendum from brookings.edu
"On March 6, the Crimean Supreme Council voted to ask to accede to Russia. The council scheduled a referendum for March 16, which offered two choices: join Russia or return to Crimea’s 1992 constitution, which gave the peninsula significant autonomy. Those who favored Crimea remaining part of Ukraine under the current constitution had no box to check.
The conduct of the referendum proved chaotic and took place absent any credible international observers. Local authorities reported a turnout of 83 percent, with 96.7 percent voting to join Russia. The numbers seemed implausible, given that ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars accounted for almost 40 percent of the peninsula’s population. (Two months later, a leaked report from the Russian president’s Human Rights Council put turnout at only 30 percent, with about half of those voting to join Russia.)
On March 18, Crimean and Russian officials signed the Treaty of Accession of the Republic of Crimea to Russia. Putin ratified the treaty three days later."
Russia intends to hold similar referenda in the newly occupied areas....
The Supreme Council of the Crimea issued a declaration of independence from the Ukraine on March 11th 2014 - this is why there were only 2 boxes to tick on the referendum. There was no option for the Crimea remaining in the Ukraine under the then present constitution becaue at the time the Ukraine had no valid constitution, the reason being, as I stated earlier, the coup in Kiev had suspended it. The fact that they voted the way they did may have something to do with the fact that many ethnic Ukrainians boycotted the vote - but this doesn't make it less valid.
I fully realize that I have placed myself out on a limb here by appearing to go against the grain but my position is not as radical as it seems. Basically i am saying that Nato has a share in the guilt for what has happened - a viewpoint I share with that great 'radical' the Pope, and that any solution to this problem may involve the Ukraine giving up territory - a view I share with that other great subversive radical Henry Kissinger. The Ukraine can have no long term peacefull future if it alligns totally with either Russia or with Nato - it has to be seen as a bridge between the two if it is to survive. The problem with the dominant idea in the West is that it has no end in mind - just defeat Putin and then what ?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks
I guess this sums up to an extent what I'm saying Yorkie - the end must be a peacefull solution not just to 'defeat' Putin.
I guess this sums up to an extent what I'm saying Yorkie - the end must be a peacefull solution not just to 'defeat' Putin.
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
The 'then what' is the issue...perhaps as soon as parties can find a consensus this terrible killing can stop
"Angus Roxburgh is a former BBC Moscow correspondent and consultant to the Kremlin".
Sounds like a perfectly reasonable and impartial commentator.
Ukrainians want weapons to defend themselves. 'Prolonguing the war' is allowing Ukrainians to defend themselves against Russian war crimes. Without weapons, Ukraine will be wiped off the map. 100s of thousands of Ukrainians have already been deported/sent to 'filtration' camps or prisons in Russia.
Anyone saying that Ukraine needs to roll over and accept Russian rule over them is ignoring the will of the Ukrainian people.
Do you have any evidence for the hundreds of thousands Toby ? Do you have any evidence that Putin aims at more than just the neutrality of the country and its partition ? Or are you just repeating what the media has told you ? The idea here suggested by the writer and also by people like Henry Kissinger is that we may have to accept Russian rule over areas with Russian majorities ie. a form of partition before any peace is possible. The main difference is that you are looking for victory over Putin and i am looking for a long term solution and an end to the killing. Is it 'the will of the people' in the Dombass that they live under Ukrainian rule and are compelled to be part of a country which is part of Nato ?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.uk...-one-million-ukrainians-to-its-territory.html
Russia have announced it publicly.
Putin has attacked the North/South/East of the country, they haven't just 'liberated' the Donbass. How do you explain the attacks on the North? 'Repeating what the media told me'? How do you get your info? I have no time for Kissenger, I'm genuinely surprised you do
You have no evidence that all people in Donetsk and Luhansk want to be part of Russia, and even if a minority do that's no justification for this war or even dragging everyone there under Russian rule.
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
Donbas poll from last year:
The Status of the Donbass
An interesting Levada Center poll from March 2021 asked Russian citizens how they felt about the level of autonomy the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics presently have. The largest proportion (28%) of respondents said they thought the republics should become independent states, while 25% said they thought the republics should become part of Russia. Another 16% said that autonomy within Ukraine was enough, and 10% said the republics should be returned to Ukraine. Another 25% said it was hard to say. While it is true that 69% of respondents effectively support some degree of autonomy for the Donbass region, there is no clear frontrunner for a desired outcome. Instead, there are a range of results with very different political consequences. This nuance in opinion seems not fully appreciated by the West, which often oversimplifies Russian public sentiment or assumes the Russian populace is fully in line with its president.
The Status of the Donbass
An interesting Levada Center poll from March 2021 asked Russian citizens how they felt about the level of autonomy the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics presently have. The largest proportion (28%) of respondents said they thought the republics should become independent states, while 25% said they thought the republics should become part of Russia. Another 16% said that autonomy within Ukraine was enough, and 10% said the republics should be returned to Ukraine. Another 25% said it was hard to say. While it is true that 69% of respondents effectively support some degree of autonomy for the Donbass region, there is no clear frontrunner for a desired outcome. Instead, there are a range of results with very different political consequences. This nuance in opinion seems not fully appreciated by the West, which often oversimplifies Russian public sentiment or assumes the Russian populace is fully in line with its president.
All is in a word Toby - they say evacuated you say deported. The Russians claim that these were from dangerous regions - there is also no mention as to whether they were ethnic Ukrainians or ethnic Russians (no differentiation is made there). Mikhael Mizintsev also claims that over 2.5 million foreigners and Ukrainians requested to be evacuated to Russia. According to him, there are over 9,500 temporary accommodation facilities in Russia. You call them filtration camps or prisons - he calls them temporary accomodation camps, you call it deportation he calls it evacuation. It is certainly conceivable that Russia would be taking in refugees just as the West is. At any rate you do not have proof either way.https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.uk...-one-million-ukrainians-to-its-territory.html
Russia have announced it publicly.
Putin has attacked the North/South/East of the country, they haven't just 'liberated' the Donbass. How do you explain the attacks on the North? 'Repeating what the media told me'? How do you get your info? I have no time for Kissenger, I'm genuinely surprised you do
You have no evidence that all people in Donetsk and Luhansk want to be part of Russia, and even if a minority do that's no justification for this war or even dragging everyone there under Russian rule.
There are hundreds of witness statements from victims of deportations
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61248436.amp
Russians have either been killing, raping or deporting Ukrainians from Russian-controlled areas.
Do you also believe that Bucha was staged by the CIA?
Was this poll done amongst Russian citizens living in Russia or those living in the Dombass Yorkie ?
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
Fairly universal this across the worlds media:
https://www.google.com/search?channel=nrow5&client=firefox-b-d&q=ukrainans+taken++to+russia+
Take your pick.....
Cologne you are beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist who denies pretty conclusive evidence !
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
This is a Donbas poll
https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/iri_donbas_gca_for_public_release.pdf
Healthcare comes across as as much more pressing need than decentralization
https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/iri_donbas_gca_for_public_release.pdf
Healthcare comes across as as much more pressing need than decentralization
It's not a case of being a conspiracy theorist Yorkie. War is hell and it turns people into monsters - people don't start them with the idea that there will be human rights violations but they alwas do happen through the progressive dehumanization which occurs. Americans who went into Iraq didn't think that Guantanamo would be the result. When all the dust has cleared then we will know the scale of destruction but at the moment there is a propaganda war going on - the Ukraine has an interest in portraying events which show up brutality on the Russian side (and there is a lot of it), and also their own heroism and they are dominating the flow of information coming out.
I haven't read through this yet but I will. An additional problem in the Ukraine (even without the war) is the problem of disease - apparently the rate of Tuberculosis there is the fifth highest Worldwide. Immediate vaccination of refugees from there is a major issue here.