Off Topic Ukraine

[colognehornet]

Are words cologne. You stated that Ukraine was playing host to the Russians. That would imply they were guests, not part of the country. Still waiting for visas like many in the UK?
You are right that there has not been a declaration of war. Does a "special operation" sound better although it has turned out to be the same thing?

I implied that the Ukraine is a multi ethnic country Frenchie which is, unfortunately, trying to behave as if it isn't - it is the case that the largest ethnic group (Ukrainian) is acting as if it was the entire country by imposing a language and its politics on all others, including the ethnic Russians living there. This also includes Hungarian speaking people in the Ukraine, which is why Orban is also less than enthusiastic. It is exactly the same position as in India where you have a Hindu nationalist party declaring Hindi as the only official language and India as being only a Hindu country over the heads of all minorities living there including the Urdu speaking Muslim population - you could just as well say why don't they move to Pakistan, but India is their home. Actually there are some surprising parallels between the Dombass and Kashmir.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I think the language debate is a bit of a myth. French was imposed here on the population as the only official language in 1992, although legal documents go back much further. Go to Corsica or Brittany and you find people still speaking their own language. There are people here who I have difficulty understanding because they still speak the local dialect. The daughter of my friend Bernard tells me that he doesn't speak proper French. I spent a couple of weeks in rural mid Wales where all the locals spoke Welsh, until they spoke to me in English. My son in law went to a Welsh school and speaks perfect Welsh despite English being the official language. A government can decree that a single language be used, but in practice people will continue to use what they have grown up with.

 

[colognehornet]

I think the language debate is a bit of a myth. French was imposed here on the population as the only official language in 1992, although legal documents go back much further. Go to Corsica or Brittany and you find people still speaking their own language. There are people here who I have difficulty understanding because they still speak the local dialect. The daughter of my friend Bernard tells me that he doesn't speak proper French. I spent a couple of weeks in rural mid Wales where all the locals spoke Welsh, until they spoke to me in English. My son in law went to a Welsh school and speaks perfect Welsh despite English being the official language. A government can decree that a single language be used, but in practice people will continue to use what they have grown up with.

In April 2019 the ukrainian parliament voted a new law - which came into force on June 16th June 2019. The use of Ukrainian is compulsory in public authorities, electoral procedures and political campaigning, pre school, school and university education, in scientific, cultural and sporting activities, in book publishing and distribution, in printed mass media, TV and radio broadcasting, in hospitals and nursing homes and in all legal documents, contracts etc. Some exceptions are made for the Tatar language, the English language and other official EU languages. There are no exceptions for Russian, Byellorussian, Hungarian or Yiddish. I think that any comparisons to France are more than superfluous. At one time there were 4,000 schools in Dombass where tuition was possible also in Russian - there are now none !

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

In April 2019 the ukrainian parliament voted a new law - which came into force on June 16th June 2019. The use of Ukrainian is compulsory in public authorities, electoral procedures and political campaigning, pre school, school and university education, in scientific, cultural and sporting activities, in book publishing and distribution, in printed mass media, TV and radio broadcasting, in hospitals and nursing homes and in all legal documents, contracts etc. Some exceptions are made for the Tatar language, the English language and other official EU languages. There are no exceptions for Russian, Byellorussian, Hungarian or Yiddish. I think that any comparisons to France are more than superfluous. At one time there were 4,000 schools in Dombass where tuition was possible also in Russian - there are now none !

I don't really see the problem there cologne. In England a neighbour was a teacher who went around the schools teaching English to the immigrant children who did not speak it. It was all a way of helping them to integrate. You can say that this is an official language, use it in the schools and everywhere else, but groups will always exist who will continue to make sure their old ones continues to exist. Do they have schools in Germany where refugees are still taught in their original language, or are they learning to speak German?

 

[yorkshirehornet]

I am not a card carrying party member..... there is a range of views....

Party line:

The Green Party deplores the invasion of Ukraine and condemns the unprovoked aggression against a sovereign nation in the strongest terms. The party calls for immediate and stringent sanctions on Russia.

Green Party co-leader Carla Denyer said:

“It is with unspeakable sadness that we have today witnessed an unprovoked and unjustified invasion of a European country that will have a devastating impact on the lives of millions of innocent people.

“At this dark time, our thoughts are with the Ukrainian people, whose lives have been turned upside down by this dreadful act of aggression.

“The response from the UK has so far been wholly inadequate. We urge the government to immediately impose the strongest of sanctions on Russian economic interests, end once and for all the influence of Russian money in our democracy and launch an investigation into Russian interference in our elections"

Not too dissimilar to the European Greens.

Ultimately the UK Green Party advocates leaving NATO..... which is aspirational ( not something I would vote for)

..............................

All of the above is an aside really... we have the reality to deal with.

 

[colognehornet]

I am not a card carrying party member..... there is a range of views....

Party line:

The Green Party deplores the invasion of Ukraine and condemns the unprovoked aggression against a sovereign nation in the strongest terms. The party calls for immediate and stringent sanctions on Russia.

Green Party co-leader Carla Denyer said:

“It is with unspeakable sadness that we have today witnessed an unprovoked and unjustified invasion of a European country that will have a devastating impact on the lives of millions of innocent people.

“At this dark time, our thoughts are with the Ukrainian people, whose lives have been turned upside down by this dreadful act of aggression.

“The response from the UK has so far been wholly inadequate. We urge the government to immediately impose the strongest of sanctions on Russian economic interests, end once and for all the influence of Russian money in our democracy and launch an investigation into Russian interference in our elections"

Not too dissimilar to the European Greens.

Ultimately the UK Green Party advocates leaving NATO..... which is aspirational ( not something I would vote for)

..............................

All of the above is an aside really... we have the reality to deal with.

The question is whether the Green Party of England and Wales supports the supplying of the Ukraine with weapons. Because this is the question which is tearing the German Green Party apart - with the leadership of the party being in favour and most of the grassroots party being against. An important question because the German Greens are now the second biggest party in a ruling coalition.

 

[colognehornet]

I don't really see the problem there cologne. In England a neighbour was a teacher who went around the schools teaching English to the immigrant children who did not speak it. It was all a way of helping them to integrate. You can say that this is an official language, use it in the schools and everywhere else, but groups will always exist who will continue to make sure their old ones continues to exist. Do they have schools in Germany where refugees are still taught in their original language, or are they learning to speak German?

In Germany there are some international schools where learning is bilingual. Political campaigning is done in German, and if necessary Turkish or Russian (in parts of the country where this would be an advantage to the party concerned), there are Turkish speaking TV and radio programmes. Of course in the relevant parts of Schleswig Holstein Danish is used as an official language (a curious case only known there). If a language were spoken by more than 5%-10% of the population then it would be declared as an official language (not actually sure about the percentage). Danish is the second political language of Germany ! The same applies to religion and the percentage hurdle. I would not liken Russian to a minority language in the ukraine Frenchie - because in some areas it is the majority language - as French would be in Wallonia (Belgium) or in Valaise (Switzerland). Belgium, Switzerland and Luxembourg are all, officially, multilingual countries because languages are spoken by enough people to ensure state language status. Luxembourg is the most extreme because all primary education is in French, and all secondary education is in German (so the poor kids there are forced to be bilingual from the beginning ). I think you will find by these examples that any western country which had a ''minority'' amounting to 20-30%, or which was a majority language in some administrative areas, would be automatically declared as officially multi lingual. India is the closest example because they have several official languages with the only exception being when the hindu Nationalist nutter party is in power - this is the only case where one language is forced on a multi lingual nation Worldwide as far as I know. China also has several official languages.

 

[colognehornet]

In Germany there are some international schools where learning is bilingual. Political campaigning is done in German, and if necessary Turkish or Russian (in parts of the country where this would be an advantage to the party concerned), there are Turkish speaking TV and radio programmes. Of course in the relevant parts of Schleswig Holstein Danish is used as an official language (a curious case only known there). If a language were spoken by more than 5%-10% of the population then it would be declared as an official language (not actually sure about the percentage). Danish is the second political language of Germany ! The same applies to religion and the percentage hurdle. I would not liken Russian to a minority language in the ukraine Frenchie - because in some areas it is the majority language - as French would be in Wallonia (Belgium) or in Valaise (Switzerland). Belgium, Switzerland and Luxembourg are all, officially, multilingual countries because languages are spoken by enough people to ensure state language status. Luxembourg is the most extreme because all primary education is in French, and all secondary education is in German (so the poor kids there are forced to be bilingual from the beginning ). I think you will find by these examples that any western country which had a ''minority'' amounting to 20-30%, or which was a majority language in some administrative areas, would be automatically declared as officially multi lingual. India is the closest example because they have several official languages with the only exception being when the hindu Nationalist nutter party is in power - this is the only case where one language is forced on a multi lingual nation Worldwide as far as I know. China also has several official languages.

Just to enlarge on this and make it more understandable - the best European example of this would be to compare the numbers of Russian speakers in the Ukraine to the percentage of French speakers in Switzerland (stratistically more or less the same). So a Western parallel would be if the Swiss were to impose German on the entire country as the only official language. Such a step would be unthinkable.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

The question is whether the Green Party of England and Wales supports the supplying of the Ukraine with weapons. Because this is the question which is tearing the German Green Party apart - with the leadership of the party being in favour and most of the grassroots party being against. An important question because the German Greens are now the second biggest party in a ruling coalition.

There is no Green Party policy on this... and of course it is ,much more pressing for the German Greens...I have just read a little..........

 

[yorkshirehornet]

Just to enlarge on this and make it more understandable - the best European example of this would be to compare the numbers of Russian speakers in the Ukraine to the percentage of French speakers in Switzerland (stratistically more or less the same). So a Western parallel would be if the Swiss were to impose German on the entire country as the only official language. Such a step would be unthinkable.

But let us not lose track of the here and now situation.....and of course we can also go into what the pro-Russian authorities are imposing on Ukrainian citizens in the occupied zones....and of course their totalitarian regime in Russia itself....

 

[colognehornet]

But let us not lose track of the here and now situation.....and of course we can also go into what the pro-Russian authorities are imposing on Ukrainian citizens in the occupied zones....and of course their totalitarian regime in Russia itself....

The here and now situation requires that we have some kind of end goal which we are striving for - as far as I can see we don't have that. There is no thought given to the Ukraine after this is over - at the moment they are seen as the ''Champion of the Western World'' even though we, mostly know nothing about the place. We can always discredit regimes by calling them totalitarian but that's just a word which we bandy around like 'Fascist' etc. After this what do you want to see - a defeated Russia which still has the largest nuclear arsenal on this planet ? A Ukraine which has has become one of the most weaponized states on this planet - with a power vacuum ? We need an exit strategy - so many people are saying that there can only be a diplomatic end to this - but diplomatic ends need compromise on all sides. However much it hurts Putin has to be offered something ! If the only diplomacy you have on offer is that of threats and yet more escalation then that's not going to bring us to any kind of solution.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The here and now situation requires that we have some kind of end goal which we are striving for - as far as I can see we don't have that. There is no thought given to the Ukraine after this is over - at the moment they are seen as the ''Champion of the Western World'' even though we, mostly know nothing about the place. We can always discredit regimes by calling them totalitarian but that's just a word which we bandy around like 'Fascist' etc. After this what do you want to see - a defeated Russia which still has the largest nuclear arsenal on this planet ? A Ukraine which has has become one of the most weaponized states on this planet - with a power vacuum ? We need an exit strategy - so many people are saying that there can only be a diplomatic end to this - but diplomatic ends need compromise on all sides. However much it hurts Putin has to be offered something ! If the only diplomacy you have on offer is that of threats and yet more escalation then that's not going to bring us to any kind of solution.

You offer nothing to an aggressor until he stops the aggression. Let him withdraw his forces totally from Ukraine and stop his murderous activity for a month, then you might start talks. What do you offer him? Withdrawal of some sanctions to an agreed timescale providing he sticks to the agreement. That is a peaceful ending providing Putin wants one.

 

[colognehornet]

You offer nothing to an aggressor until he stops the aggression. Let him withdraw his forces totally from Ukraine and stop his murderous activity for a month, then you might start talks. What do you offer him? Withdrawal of some sanctions to an agreed timescale providing he sticks to the agreement. That is a peaceful ending providing Putin wants one.

The concept of Putin withdrawing his forces is not a realistic one Frenchie - it could only happen simultaneously with a stop to the delivery of weapons from the West.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

The concept of Putin withdrawing his forces is not a realistic one Frenchie - it could only happen simultaneously with a stop to the delivery of weapons from the West.

The man is a proven liar and mass murderer...... why on earth would we trust one word he says?

Time and again Cologne you seem to say Ukraine is part of the problem...

There is one problem here...that Russia has invaded, killed, destroyed, kidnapped tortured Ukrainian citizens in their own country. So they and Putin are culpable.

There are complex causes ... some of which you have set out in previous posts.

But the killing has to stop.

 

[colognehornet]

The man is a proven liar and mass murderer...... why on earth would we trust one word he says?

Time and again Cologne you seem to say Ukraine is part of the problem...

There is one problem here...that Russia has invaded, killed, destroyed, kidnapped tortured Ukrainian citizens in their own country. So they and Putin are culpable.

There are complex causes ... some of which you have set out in previous posts.

But the killing has to stop.

Is flooding the country with weapons the way to stop the killing ?

 

[Luther]

Putin has said that the war is over as soon as the Russian speaking Dombass is under their control - the idea that this is simply a beginning to establishing a new Russian empire is only a western interpretation on this.

Hitler stated that the Sudetenland (containing approximately 3 million ethnic Germans) was his last territorial demand in Europe.

 

[colognehornet]

Hitler stated that the Sudetenland (containing approximately 3 million ethnic Germans) was his last territorial demand in Europe.

Yes, this is true Luther - but I don't believe there to be other parallels to Hitler, though the Western media would like to push that idea. The first difference is that Putin has not developed a complete ideology around his actions such as Mein Kampf and appears to have no ideology behind his actions. The second is that Russia is totally geared up for defensive warfare - every time they have tried to fight a war outside of Russia it has gone tits up - whether in Afghanistan, Georgia or anywhere else. On their own ground it is a different matter altogether, as any invader would quickly find out. Nuclear weapons are also only defensive in as much as they could never possibly be used on a neighbouring country. The Russians do not have anything like the Wehrmacht of 1939 at their disposal. Also the idea that we can march into Russia (as was the case with Germany) and replace their government is an illusion. Like it or not we have to live with Russia as a neighbour for the foreseeable future. Countries are responding according to their history here - Britain with no place for what looks like appeasement, the Americans who think they are born to lead, and the Germans who want to maintain dialogue with everyone - I would choose the latter of these.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

Is flooding the country with weapons the way to stop the killing ?

So just give on to Putin then? You forget he tried to take the whole country

......and Russian and Belarusian politicians have been talking about a Russia-Belarus-Ukraine (and in case Moldovan) federation
I fear you think Putins aspirations are limited Cologne

...and look what Russia have done on Czechnya and Syria recently..... destroying whole cities and their peoples

 

[yorkshirehornet]

] Also the idea that we can march into Russia (as was the case with Germany) and replace their government is an illusion. ]

That is exactly what Putin tried to do in Ukraine

also...a number of world leaders have been dialoguing with Putin and look how he treated them...

 

[colognehornet]

So just give on to Putin then? You forget he tried to take the whole country

......and Russian and Belarusian politicians have been talking about a Russia-Belarus-Ukraine (and in case Moldovan) federation
I fear you think Putins aspirations are limited Cologne

...and look what Russia have done on Czechnya and Syria recently..... destroying whole cities and their peoples

So just give on to Putin then? You forget he tried to take the whole country

......and Russian and Belarusian politicians have been talking about a Russia-Belarus-Ukraine (and in case Moldovan) federation
I fear you think Putins aspirations are limited Cologne

...and look what Russia have done on Czechnya and Syria recently..... destroying whole cities and their peoples

I actually do think that his aspirations are limited - but this is no cause for ''fear'' on your side