Off Topic UK / EU Future

[oldfrenchhorn]

It would appear that the government is considering putting off the vote to avoid humiliation. Oh what a mess they have got themselves into. There can be little wonder at it when you see how the country has been torn apart by the process, and that is reflected in Westminster.

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It is quite clear looking at the above just how isolated the constituencies are that still believe that any good can come out of a No Deal.

 

[superhorns]

It would appear that the government is considering putting off the vote to avoid humiliation. Oh what a mess they have got themselves into. There can be little wonder at it when you see how the country has been torn apart by the process, and that is reflected in Westminster.

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It is quite clear looking at the above just how isolated the constituencies are that still believe that any good can come out of a No Deal.

It could be worse, we could be living in France!!!!!

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

It could be worse, we could be living in France!!!!!

I would have thought that you might have tried to defend the minority view that you hold, but the fact that you don't says a lot.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

I actually have a pragmatic approach.. These is not the time for ideology.. We live in the real world with major issues.. I know I would prefer the UK to be centre stage.. Rather than diminished and with few friends...

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[yorkshirehornet]

They will be having the biggest meltdown ever when they realise this:-
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1054966/Brexit-news-theresa-may-deal-people-s-vote-second-referendum-EU27?fbclid=IwAR3Fge14ofrM8PfVQw7tUvSyhaJu9-lRxQrxw0w5NhTc985gpOxoKmXd7sk

Will only take another anti-EU leader to give it the 2 fingers and Brexit is done - cannot wait

Just one option.. There are six outlined on the BBC website...
In any case we know the EU as a whole wants us to stay.. So no big obstacle..

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[superhorns]

I would have thought that you might have tried to defend the minority view that you hold, but the fact that you don't says a lot.

It just shows there are a few more than some on here need that educating about the positives of a clean Brexit.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

It just shows there are a few more than some on here need that educating about the positives of a clean Brexit.

You had every chance, along with some of the extremists in your party to put forward an alternative detailed plan. However there has never been one. You have just used soundbites as an alternative to forwarding sound policy and being prepared to defend it. Your government has failed all four corners of the UK in this, and has attempted to keep the information secret that confirmed it. The bluff was called, and the government was found to be in contempt of it's own Parliament. This was supposed to be about returning sovereignty. Is it?

 

[superhorns]

You had every chance, along with some of the extremists in your party to put forward an alternative detailed plan. However there has never been one. You have just used soundbites as an alternative to forwarding sound policy and being prepared to defend it. Your government has failed all four corners of the UK in this, and has attempted to keep the information secret that confirmed it. The bluff was called, and the government was found to be in contempt of it's own Parliament. This was supposed to be about returning sovereignty. Is it?

If we can manage to get a proper Brexit team led by people that represent the majority view of the referendum we could return sovereignty simply enjoyed by most countries in the world. Alternatively, a weak, weedy defeatist attitude as displayed by some remoaners on this forum will keep the UK shackled under the control of the eurocrats in Brussels. Unfortunately many people have a limited outlook and buckle when faced with a little difficulty.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

If we can manage to get a proper Brexit team led by people that represent the majority view of the referendum we could return sovereignty simply enjoyed by most countries in the world. Alternatively, a weak, weedy defeatist attitude as displayed by some remoaners on this forum will keep the UK shackled under the control of the eurocrats in Brussels. Unfortunately many people have a limited outlook and buckle when faced with a little difficulty.

I did ask you several days ago, what you believed the process could be that you replaced the current government with one more to your liking. Would you now like to state that process. Does it mean putting Brexit on hold for example while you elect a new leader?

 

[Tobes]

If we can manage to get a proper Brexit team led by people that represent the majority view of the referendum we could return sovereignty simply enjoyed by most countries in the world. Alternatively, a weak, weedy defeatist attitude as displayed by some remoaners on this forum will keep the UK shackled under the control of the eurocrats in Brussels. Unfortunately many people have a limited outlook and buckle when faced with a little difficulty.

May put some of the lead Brexiteers in the most prominent Govt cabinet positions. Not a single one of them has come up with anything that’s remotely workable and squares the circle of the incompatibility of the GFA and leaving the customs union, and when faced with reality firmly colliding with the fantasy that they’ve been selling for the last few years, to a man - they ran away. Back to the safety of the back benches where they can lob tomatoes and continue to spout their nonsense without having to put forward a single workable alternative.

Your post is the usual ‘stiff upper lip, where’s your backbone Pike!’ Brexiteer waffle. The most laughable thing to happen this week, was to see many of the Brexitremists crying about our Parliament being a bit too Sovereign Oh the irony.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Stelios Koulouglou, who represents Greece’s ruling leftist Syriza party in the European Parliament has said,

Theresa May has a last chance to save her country and her political career. She has to tell the British parliament and the people of Great Britain that this is a disaster and we have to change course and hold a new referendum. Of course, that means confronting Brexiters but she is going to have to do that anyway because they are not satisfied with the deal she has come up with.

A lot of us here [in Brussels] hold the view that it is better to die heroically that go down this way ... As things stand, she seems to be losing control completely.

 

[superhorns]

May put some of the lead Brexiteers in the most prominent Govt cabinet positions. Not a single one of them has come up with anything that’s remotely workable and squares the circle of the incompatibility of the GFA and leaving the customs union, and when faced with reality firmly colliding with the fantasy that they’ve been selling for the last few years, to a man - they ran away. Back to the safety of the back benches where they can lob tomatoes and continue to spout their nonsense without having to put forward a single workable alternative.

Your post is the usual ‘stiff upper lip, where’s your backbone Pike!’ Brexiteer waffle. The most laughable thing to happen this week, was to see many of the Brexitremists crying about our Parliament being a bit too Sovereign Oh the irony.

Let us get back to reality.

The Brexiteers within May's negotiating were affectively sidelined early on in the process, her advice was mainly coming from Oli Robbins, like her, a firm Remainer. They managed to come up with the present backstop arrangement this time last year just to announce sufficient progress had been made in the talks to go to the next stage. How on earth they thought any sensible UK MP could support it is beyond belief, her advisers were as incompetent as her judgement. This wasted a whole year.

Her deal will be defeated heavily, she should then resign and a Brexiteer should attempt to re-negotiate. If they refuse, as is likely, then the UK should leave without a deal.

 

[superhorns]

As well as fighting anarchy in his country Macron now has to face the fact that the resurgent right wing Rassembement National, Le Pen's rebranded political party has taken a clear and healthy lead in the forthcoming European elections. France has joined many European countries with a lurch to the far right.

Macron's self cultivated reputation as somebody willing to take on the necessary reforms has been shot to pieces. He has simply followed all of the recent previous leaders in capitulating to organised pressure from grassroots and labour movements.

No wonder he tried to arrest his fast popularity decline with a promised attack against the UK in any forthcoming possible trade deal, desperate stuff.

 

[Deleted.......]

As well as fighting anarchy in his country Macron now has to face the fact that the resurgent right wing Rassembement National, Le Pen's rebranded political party has taken a clear and healthy lead in the forthcoming European elections. France has joined many European countries with a lurch to the far right.

Macron's self cultivated reputation as somebody willing to take on the necessary reforms has been shot to pieces. He has simply followed all of the recent previous leaders in capitulating to organised pressure from grassroots and labour movements.

No wonder he tried to arrest his fast popularity decline with a promised attack against the UK in any forthcoming possible trade deal, desperate stuff.

The Member States that some like to accuse of attacking us are simply protecting their national interests. How dare they

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Your reality and that of others is rather different. Cameron took a huge risk with the future of the country simply to try and hold a party together that had been split for years. That gamble failed, so he walked away from it. Any politician within the Tory ranks who could see where it was going to lead would have said, thanks but no thanks, the circle cannot be squared without doing enormous damage to the country. Step forward the current PM who believes that only what she wants is the right thing to do, and doesn't listen to anyone else. She had already shown up her skills in the Home Office where she allowed immigration from outside the EU to continue at a pace, but kept quiet when the right wing papers, that had their own agenda, blamed the rise as a problem with the EU.
Having somehow found herself in No.10 she didn't have a plan, so to try and keep both of the warring factions apart produced an evenly balanced cabinet. Despite not having a plan she still triggered article 50, not the sort of thing to do if you don't know what you are aiming at. That cabinet could not agree within, and when she did finally come up with a plan the splits within became visible to all. So did she really grasp the nettle and appoint replacements that could have moved the debate in one direction or the other? No, she just kept appointing replacements to keep her balance, and to help kick the problem further down the road called an election. As the voters removed her majority she now only had one option if she wanted to stay in power, buy some votes, knowing that it could only be a temporary fix. That fix has now failed.
Those who left government have been asked time and time again to produce their plan, yet never do so. Yesterday one of them stood up in Parliament and said that he had a plan. We could take that cherry from that cake, and another one from a different cake and have a feast. It totally ignored the fact that the cakes do not belong to him. While the infighting continued within the Tory party, nothing had changed you will note, the opposition didn't need to do a lot except watch as members continued to take lumps out of each other.
So where has this period of non-government led us to today. A minister said that we had a good month on trade last February, so that proved the economy was going along nicely, whereas daily you read that £billions are being moved abroad because no one knows what is happening. Companies are spending millions just preparing for the worst instead of investing to produce growth, something that will not improve under any forecast if we leave our largest market. You can see why Fox has suddenly become so flexible. Go into a nice long transition period and he will not have to make good on his promises to have dozens of trade deals lined up to come into effect on 1st April next year. The country is now far worse than it was before Cameron took his risk both economically and socially. Some still believe in the sunny uplands of being a country that has actually voted to make itself worse off, something that no other country has ever voted for before.

 

[Tobes]

Let us get back to reality.

The Brexiteers within May's negotiating were affectively sidelined early on in the process, her advice was mainly coming from Oli Robbins, like her, a firm Remainer. They managed to come up with the present backstop arrangement this time last year just to announce sufficient progress had been made in the talks to go to the next stage. How on earth they thought any sensible UK MP could support it is beyond belief, her advisers were as incompetent as her judgement. This wasted a whole year.

Her deal will be defeated heavily, she should then resign and a Brexiteer should attempt to re-negotiate. If they refuse, as is likely, then the UK should leave without a deal.

Davis and Johnson both signed the backstop agreement.

What’s the workable alternative?

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I understand the Government has significantly revised up its worst case scenario on No Deal disruption at UK borders - to 6 months of chaos, rather than 6 weeks. Letters going out to ‘stakeholders’ today.

Ministers would order pharmacists to dispense a “reduced quantity” of the medicine, an “alternative dosage form”, a “therapeutic equivalent” or a “generic equivalent”. As part of the plans “we are working on ensuring that we have aviation capacity”, he said. The government was also “buying a large collection of refrigeration units so that those drugs that can be stockpiled, we will have a stockpile of,” he said. Hancock on the radio today.
So back to rationing again. I remember the rejoicing when it was removed after the war and the Berlin airlift. How much are the government spending on these refrigeration units?

 

[superhorns]

Your reality and that of others is rather different. Cameron took a huge risk with the future of the country simply to try and hold a party together that had been split for years. That gamble failed, so he walked away from it. Any politician within the Tory ranks who could see where it was going to lead would have said, thanks but no thanks, the circle cannot be squared without doing enormous damage to the country. Step forward the current PM who believes that only what she wants is the right thing to do, and doesn't listen to anyone else. She had already shown up her skills in the Home Office where she allowed immigration from outside the EU to continue at a pace, but kept quiet when the right wing papers, that had their own agenda, blamed the rise as a problem with the EU.
Having somehow found herself in No.10 she didn't have a plan, so to try and keep both of the warring factions apart produced an evenly balanced cabinet. Despite not having a plan she still triggered article 50, not the sort of thing to do if you don't know what you are aiming at. That cabinet could not agree within, and when she did finally come up with a plan the splits within became visible to all. So did she really grasp the nettle and appoint replacements that could have moved the debate in one direction or the other? No, she just kept appointing replacements to keep her balance, and to help kick the problem further down the road called an election. As the voters removed her majority she now only had one option if she wanted to stay in power, buy some votes, knowing that it could only be a temporary fix. That fix has now failed.
Those who left government have been asked time and time again to produce their plan, yet never do so. Yesterday one of them stood up in Parliament and said that he had a plan. We could take that cherry from that cake, and another one from a different cake and have a feast. It totally ignored the fact that the cakes do not belong to him. While the infighting continued within the Tory party, nothing had changed you will note, the opposition didn't need to do a lot except watch as members continued to take lumps out of each other.
So where has this period of non-government led us to today. A minister said that we had a good month on trade last February, so that proved the economy was going along nicely, whereas daily you read that £billions are being moved abroad because no one knows what is happening. Companies are spending millions just preparing for the worst instead of investing to produce growth, something that will not improve under any forecast if we leave our largest market. You can see why Fox has suddenly become so flexible. Go into a nice long transition period and he will not have to make good on his promises to have dozens of trade deals lined up to come into effect on 1st April next year. The country is now far worse than it was before Cameron took his risk both economically and socially. Some still believe in the sunny uplands of being a country that has actually voted to make itself worse off, something that no other country has ever voted for before.

The referendum result fully justified Cameron's decision to hold the referendum. Indeed the Tories won an election on the promise to hold it so the country decided it needed a vote to arrest the growing problems membership of the EU was causing. Some don't like democracy when the vote goes against their personal wishes, sorry just hard luck. The argument for remain was just too weak to attract enough support.

When we have a change of leadership, with hopefully proper Brexiteers in charge, clearer policies will emerge that does not involve capitulation to the EU. Barnier has suggested his approval of a Canada ++ type deal. The NI issues can be solved within present and future technological solutions once the Republic of Ireland realise they cannot use the border for political gain.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The referendum result fully justified Cameron's decision to hold the referendum. Indeed the Tories won an election on the promise to hold it so the country decided it needed a vote to arrest the growing problems membership of the EU was causing. Some don't like democracy when the vote goes against their personal wishes, sorry just hard luck. The argument for remain was just too weak to attract enough support.

When we have a change of leadership, with hopefully proper Brexiteers in charge, clearer policies will emerge that does not involve capitulation to the EU. Barnier has suggested his approval of a Canada ++ type deal. The NI issues can be solved within present and future technological solutions once the Republic of Ireland realise they cannot use the border for political gain.

If you consider that turning the country into one running an emergency system of providing essential supplies, then you have what you want. I suspect that rather than being seen as what people thought they were voting for, they will hang this Tory Brexit as a millstone around its neck for years to come.

 

[superhorns]

If you consider that turning the country into one running an emergency system of providing essential supplies, then you have what you want. I suspect that rather than being seen as what people thought they were voting for, they will hang this Tory Brexit as a millstone around its neck for years to come.

The latest polls show the Tories leading again, there is no sign of your wish. The only alternative is a Momentum government that would see chaos in the UK fairly quickly, we may even end as bad as France at the moment.