Off Topic UK / EU Future

[Toby]

The UK should be able to operate its own immigration policy as most countries in the world enjoy. It is for the UK government to decide on the quantity and quality required to suit its need in a managed way which is impossible under the present system.

So you can't admit I was right? Not surprised.

It is possible under the present system:

If you apply for a job and are given the job, you can stay.

If you can't afford to live in the country, you don't get the right to stay.

This is how most EU states operate, but the Tories and Labour before them decided to not enforce the rules.

 

[Mexican Hornet]

It's been solved!!!! - https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...ed-west-belgium-in-brexit-deal-20181114179420

 

[superhorns]

So you can't admit I was right? Not surprised.

It is possible under the present system:

If you apply for a job and are given the job, you can stay.

If you can't afford to live in the country, you don't get the right to stay.

This is how most EU states operate, but the Tories and Labour before them decided to not enforce the rules.

At present the UK government cannot control the quantity or quality of potential immigrants from the EU, this is totally unacceptable.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

At present the UK government cannot control the quantity or quality of potential immigrants from the EU, this is totally unacceptable.

The tools are there as shown by other EU countries. Why cannot the UK use them?

 

[superhorns]

The tools are there as shown by other EU countries. Why cannot the UK use them?

There are very limited reasons for denying residency to EU nationals and must be on a case by case basis.

 

[Toby]

At present the UK government cannot control the quantity or quality of potential immigrants from the EU, this is totally unacceptable.

Yes, they can, and you've completely ignored what I said and resorted to soundbites.

Why do you find it so hard to admit you're wrong?

 

[superhorns]

There are very limited reasons for denying residency to EU nationals and must be on a case by case basis.

The presumption should be changed from proving why not to proving why an applicant should be allowed to move permanently to the UK.

 

[superhorns]

Yes, they can, and you've completely ignored what I said and resorted to soundbites.

Why do you find it so hard to admit you're wrong?

Because you struggle to understand the issue.

 

[Toby]

Because you struggle to understand the issue.

I've understood it perfectly, and spelled it out for you very simply as that seems to be the only way to stop you wriggling out of getting an answer.

Are you complaining about people visiting the UK or people moving here to live? As I've repeatedly told you, the UK has the power to restrict people from moving here unless they have a job, this also applies to benefits (which is probably what you're against but too scared to say it) and any other perks.

If you can support yourself then you can stay, surely you would be happy for wealthy people to move here and boost the economy?

Please tell me which parts of what I've claimed are wrong, or flesh out your answer. At the moment you're just repeating yourself even though you're wrong.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

There are very limited reasons for denying residency to EU nationals and must be on a case by case basis.

So you admit that you can control immigration using the tools available. Why keep denying the obvious?

 

[superhorns]

I've understood it perfectly, and spelled it out for you very simply as that seems to be the only way to stop you wriggling out of getting an answer.

Are you complaining about people visiting the UK or people moving here to live? As I've repeatedly told you, the UK has the power to restrict people from moving here unless they have a job, this also applies to benefits (which is probably what you're against but too scared to say it) and any other perks.

If you can support yourself then you can stay, surely you would be happy for wealthy people to move here and boost the economy?

Please tell me which parts of what I've claimed are wrong, or flesh out your answer. At the moment you're just repeating yourself even though you're wrong.

The present powers are not practical to deal with the vast numbers wishing to relocate to the UK because of the dreadful unemployment levels in many EU countries. I would like to see the UK adopt a system similar to that used by Australia where only those deemed as essential to the state are allowed residency. I’ m all for encouraging tourism and short term employment contracts with stringent penalties for overstayers.

 

[colognehornet]

The presumption should be changed from proving why not to proving why an applicant should be allowed to move permanently to the UK.

The presumption should be changed from proving why not to proving why an applicant should be allowed to move permanently to the UK.

You do not understand the dynamics of immigration SH. Very few people go to other countries with the intention of staying there permanently - it is too much of a wrench for most people to do that.. Mostly the intended stay is short, and then one thing leads to another, and it becomes more extended, depending on the job situation and personal circumstances. Once over the border you are in and the story begins from there. Many a permanent resident began as a tourist.

 

[superhorns]

So you admit that you can control immigration using the tools available. Why keep denying the obvious?

The tools are useless at slowing the flow from EU counties suffering hardship and poverty.

 

[superhorns]

You do not understand the dynamics of immigration SH. Very few people go to other countries with the intention of staying there permanently - it is too much of a wrench for most people to do that.. Mostly the intended stay is short, and then one thing leads to another, and it becomes more extended, depending on the job situation and personal circumstances. Once over the border you are in and the story begins from there. Many a permanent resident began as a tourist.

Try telling that to the Australian government.

 

[colognehornet]

At present the UK government cannot control the quantity or quality of potential immigrants from the EU, this is totally unacceptable.

There is no such thing as 'quality' in this context SH. Your problem is that you have divided people into catagories of desirability - those highly qualified as distinct from eg. 'fruit pickers'. The problem is that you can be the highest qualified professional yet if your language skills are not up to the same level, then you end up picking fruit as your first port of call (or something similar). You may find that your 'future desirable professionals' are those picking fruit now, and just in need of a language course. The one thing you can say for certain is that the majority of EU. workers in the UK. are over qualified for the jobs they are doing.

 

[Toby]

The present powers are not practical to deal with the vast numbers wishing to relocate to the UK because of the dreadful unemployment levels in many EU countries. I would like to see the UK adopt a system similar to that used by Australia where only those deemed as essential to the state are allowed residency. I’ m all for encouraging tourism and short term employment contracts with stringent penalties for overstayers.

You need a visa to travel to Australia, so your logic fails on the very first step.

If you need a job to move here, what is the problem? Only wealthy people will be able to move to this overpriced island for a few months without employment, surely you have no issue with rich people moving to this island? You've mentioned that your daughter lives in Spain, why should she be treated any differently?

I don't dislike foreigners so I can't seem to get your logic. For me, if someone is suitable for a job then they will be employed, and UK employers will prefer a UK candidate over a foreigner as they will have a better grasp of the English language (in most cases anyway...)

So you want people to be able to visit the country freely, with no visa, but they can't rent here or get a job unless the government says they can? How will that solve your 'Romanian pickpocket' issue that seems to eat away at you so much?

 

[superhorns]

There is no such thing as 'quality' in this context SH. Your problem is that you have divided people into catagories of desirability - those highly qualified as distinct from eg. 'fruit pickers'. The problem is that you can be the highest qualified professional yet if your language skills are not up to the same level, then you end up picking fruit as your first port of call (or something similar). You may find that your 'future desirable professionals' are those picking fruit now, and just in need of a language course. The one thing you can say for certain is that the majority of EU. workers in the UK. are over qualified for the jobs they are doing.

Try changing quality to qualifications if that makes you happy, in any event it should be for the UK government to decide on who it deems suitable for residency.

 

[superhorns]

You need a visa to travel to Australia, so your logic fails on the very first step.

If you need a job to move here, what is the problem? Only wealthy people will be able to move to this overpriced island for a few months without employment, surely you have no issue with rich people moving to this island? You've mentioned that your daughter lives in Spain, why should she be treated any differently?

I don't dislike foreigners so I can't seem to get your logic. For me, if someone is suitable for a job then they will be employed, and UK employers will prefer a UK candidate over a foreigner as they will have a better grasp of the English language (in most cases anyway...)

So you want people to be able to visit the country freely, with no visa, but they can't rent here or get a job unless the government says they can? How will that solve your 'Romanian pickpocket' issue that seems to eat away at you so much?

My daughter does not live in Spain she simply owns a holiday home.

The UK government needs to tighten up its procedures to make it far more difficult to employ illegals and much easier to deport those not legally resident.

 

[colognehornet]

Try changing quality to qualifications if that makes you happy, in any event it should be for the UK government to decide on who it deems suitable for residency.

We can change the wording as much as you want the best qualifications in the World without linguistic ability equals zero. The next time you have a Pole lumping bricks around your garden try to engage him in conversation, and try to find out what his 'real' qualifications are. Often they are far different, and better, than what appears from his job. Just about every single migrant begins at a lower status than he had in his own country - how do you measure that on your 'desirability' scale ? You will find that the EU. population in the UK. is far better educated and qualified than the native population - in fact 50% University educated. Maybe Britain would be better off learning to use the resources at it's disposal.

 

[superhorns]

We can change the wording as much as you want the best qualifications in the World without linguistic ability equals zero. The next time you have a Pole lumping bricks around your garden try to engage him in conversation, and try to find out what his 'real' qualifications are. Often they are far different, and better, than what appears from his job. Just about every single migrant begins at a lower status than he had in his own country - how do you measure that on your 'desirability' scale ? You will find that the EU. population in the UK. is far better educated and qualified than the native population - in fact 50% University educated. Maybe Britain would be better off learning to use the resources at it's disposal.

I had a couple of Polish ‘brickies’ on-site for a very short period. A 5 year old child could have laid blocks better, they were useless. This is not to say they are all useless just the ones I unfortunately met a few months ago.

There is a system currently being operated in the UK for companies to justify employing non UK / EU staff. This will be simply extended to cover future EU applicants.