Off Topic UK / EU Future

[oldfrenchhorn]

Actually I don't remember much about any real debate on Venezuala - honestly, I know that the capital is called Caracas and that they have never been in the World Cup, but that isn't enough for a debate. It may have covered other so called Socialist states but my only contact to the country was that I knew a Venezualan girl in Hamburg and if she was representative of the rest then wow !

I remember it and who was involved. One or two of your comments on socialism cologne, but no suggestion that you had inside knowledge.
Can you remember her name?

 

[superhorns]

For those with dodgy memories just put Venezuela in the above search box.

 

[Tobes]

All and every occasions where the ECJ override the UK is unacceptable. To have control of one's own laws is a right enjoyed by the vast majority of countries in the world, not much to ask for really.

Then you won’t have a problem naming an issue that they’ve overridden a U.K. decision then will you?

Neither will you have a problem naming an EU law that impinges on your existence?

 

[Tobes]

It's amazing how often some Brexiters revert to WWII phraseology to make their points. The idea that Brussels is the same as Nazi Germany is tasteless, and absurd and utterly wrong headed. And it shows that those using such terms are devoid of any coherent arguments.

It also shows what lies not far beneath the surface when it comes to their issue with the EU.

No coincidence that the older the voter the higher the percentage voted Leave.

 

[superhorns]

It also shows what lies not far beneath the surface when it comes to their issue with the EU.

No coincidence that the older the voter the higher the percentage voted Leave.

It is because we are much more knowledgable and experienced.

 

[Tobes]

Nope - Cameron said a leave vote meant leave, in fact he promised to invoke article 50 in a few days until he resigned. The legal government said the result would be treated as government policy, surely you remember that?

I couldn’t give a monkey’s what Cameron said, the cavalier clown ran away the minute the reality of his completely idiotic decision to hold a referendum on an issue that the Govt of the day weren’t advocating the change, and had done absolutely zero planning for a Leave outcome dawned on him....

The idea that this country could leave with no deal and the calamity that would bring with it, when the majority of the population would likely be against it (they already are) based solely on fulfilling the result of a lie strewn referendum nearly 3 years prior, and to check the electorates opinion at the point where a deal was clear, and therefore the choice clearly defined, would somehow be undemocratic and betraying the electorate, is a complete crock of crap.

 

[Tobes]

It is because we are much more knowledgable and experienced.

Definitely not.

 

[colognehornet]

I remember it and who was involved. One or two of your comments on socialism cologne, but no suggestion that you had inside knowledge.
Can you remember her name?

Actually I confess that it was 20 years ago Frenchie and I can't remember her name I've just used the search engine on 'Venezuala', and it does appear to be between Aberdeen and myself - although, then as now I know little about the place.

 

[superhorns]

I couldn’t give a monkey’s what Cameron said, the cavalier clown ran away the minute the reality of his completely idiotic decision to hold a referendum on an issue that the Govt of the day weren’t advocating the change, and had done absolutely zero planning for a Leave outcome dawned on him....

The idea that this country could leave with no deal and the calamity that would bring with it, when the majority of the population would likely be against it (they already are) based solely on fulfilling the result of a lie strewn referendum nearly 3 years prior, and to check the electorates opinion at the point where a deal was clear, and therefore the choice clearly defined, would somehow be undemocratic and betraying the electorate, is a complete crock of crap.

So far the government and parliament have complete disagreement with you. I'm afraid the government's opinion counts much more than yours.

Remoaners hold on to even the slightest chance of denying democracy.

 

[superhorns]

Actually I confess that it was 20 years ago Frenchie and I can't remember her name I've just used the search engine on 'Venezuala', and it does appear to be between Aberdeen and myself - although, then as now I know little about the place.

There were other contributors.

 

[Tobes]

So far the government and parliament have complete disagreement with you. I'm afraid the government's opinion counts much more than yours.

Remoaners hold on to even the slightest chance of denying democracy.

Their opinion will alter when Parliament reaches complete deadlock.

 

[Tobes]

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[oldfrenchhorn]

Just been having a chat with a 22 year old from Paris who is here to stay with his grandparents for a few days. "Have the English lost all common sense", he asked. I tried to explain that he was asking the wrong person. "Why are so many of your politicians so old" My best shrug was all I could come up with. "It is obvious to us when our politicians are lying, can the English not see the same thing". Well some of us know, but lots of people don't care was my best response. "Why don't the English take to the streets to let their leaders really know how they have got it wrong". On firmer ground now I explained that there was a different culture. "Is your Mme May as extreme as our Mme Le Pen and your Mr Corbyn as extreme as our Mr Mélenchon because if they are they belong to an age that is not of the present". At this point my French gave up, but agreed to talk more tomorrow.

 

[superhorns]

Just been having a chat with a 22 year old from Paris who is here to stay with his grandparents for a few days. "Have the English lost all common sense", he asked. I tried to explain that he was asking the wrong person. "Why are so many of your politicians so old" My best shrug was all I could come up with. "It is obvious to us when our politicians are lying, can the English not see the same thing". Well some of us know, but lots of people don't care was my best response. "Why don't the English take to the streets to let their leaders really know how they have got it wrong". On firmer ground now I explained that there was a different culture. "Is your Mme May as extreme as our Mme Le Pen and your Mr Corbyn as extreme as our Mr Mélenchon because if they are they belong to an age that is not of the present". At this point my French gave up, but agreed to talk more tomorrow.

We had a French 18 year student studying politics stay with us for a month last year. She was just as clueless on English politics. Is it something they smoke?

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I think that you have no idea how people of your ilk appear to the young. Something like a dinosaure who is no longer of this world. Do they worry about who makes their laws? Of course they don't, they are much more interested in how the laws work in their lives. Do they want to be on an island that cannot see how isolated they are? No they want to get out and about, meet other people and see how others live. Do they worry about what their currency looks like or what it is called? Just what it will buy is the criteria. My family members in England of this age group are horrified at what they see as the old, and what they are trying to do to their futures. Instead of trying to preserve an antiquated system of party politics can you think of nothing that could be better and appeal to the young?

 

[superhorns]

I think that you have no idea how people of your ilk appear to the young. Something like a dinosaure who is no longer of this world. Do they worry about who makes their laws? Of course they don't, they are much more interested in how the laws work in their lives. Do they want to be on an island that cannot see how isolated they are? No they want to get out and about, meet other people and see how others live. Do they worry about what their currency looks like or what it is called? Just what it will buy is the criteria. My family members in England of this age group are horrified at what they see as the old, and what they are trying to do to their futures. Instead of trying to preserve an antiquated system of party politics can you think of nothing that could be better and appeal to the young?

To form a reasoned and accurate opinion it helps to first know something about the subject. Many youngsters are influenced by soundbites and easy slogans which is why Corbyn attracts support from them to form organisations like Momentum. As they mature and actually look at facts their views change. Your young French contact showed immediately a complete lack of understanding of current UK politics, just relying on titbits of propaganda. It is no coincidence that most older people vote Conservative and Brexit, it shows the obvious trend of those with the most experience of actual life. I was a rabid socialist in my teens until reality worked its magic.

 

[colognehornet]

To form a reasoned and accurate opinion it helps to first know something about the subject. Many youngsters are influenced by soundbites and easy slogans which is why Corbyn attracts support from them to form organisations like Momentum. As they mature and actually look at facts their views change. Your young French contact showed immediately a complete lack of understanding of current UK politics, just relying on titbits of propaganda. It is no coincidence that most older people vote Conservative and Brexit, it shows the obvious trend of those with the most experience of actual life. I was a rabid socialist in my teens until reality worked its magic.

I think that what Frenchie was saying (he can correct me if I am wrong) is that younger people are less influenced by ideological dogma, and are more pragmatic in many things. I do not consider the youth of today (if you can make such a massive generalization) as being socialist, precisely because they are generally more materialistic than we were at the same age. They are likely to be socially left, but economically right wing - more understanding of multi-culti and gay rights but ignorant about communal ownership. The question I have for you goes back to a point which Leo raised - what happens after Brexit ? You have spoken a great deal about 'sovereignty', but what would you do with it ? Up to now I have only heard talk of controlling borders etc. but what of the rest ? Why do we have 'Nation States' in a World of increasing globalization ? How can they justify their existence ? A Nation State must have an ethical purpose other than just it's own self preservation, which goes further than simple economic competetiveness.

 

[superhorns]

I think that what Frenchie was saying (he can correct me if I am wrong) is that younger people are less influenced by ideological dogma, and are more pragmatic in many things. I do not consider the youth of today (if you can make such a massive generalization) as being socialist, precisely because they are generally more materialistic than we were at the same age. They are likely to be socially left, but economically right wing - more understanding of multi-culti and gay rights but ignorant about communal ownership. The question I have for you goes back to a point which Leo raised - what happens after Brexit ? You have spoken a great deal about 'sovereignty', but what would you do with it ? Up to now I have only heard talk of controlling borders etc. but what of the rest ? Why do we have 'Nation States' in a World of increasing globalization ? How can they justify their existence ? A Nation State must have an ethical purpose other than just it's own self preservation, which goes further than simple economic competetiveness.

As I said yesterday most nations enjoy something that has been gradually seeping from the UK, sovereignty. The first step is to regain what has been lost. Once that has been achieved it is perfectly reasonable to cooperate on world issues with other nations for the benefit of all. A post Brexit UK could, and should, be an outward looking, friendly, trading nation but with the ability to decide on what is best for the UK itself. This does not mean being selfish and insular, just the basic rights other nations take for granted.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

To form a reasoned and accurate opinion it helps to first know something about the subject. Many youngsters are influenced by soundbites and easy slogans which is why Corbyn attracts support from them to form organisations like Momentum. As they mature and actually look at facts their views change. Your young French contact showed immediately a complete lack of understanding of current UK politics, just relying on titbits of propaganda. It is no coincidence that most older people vote Conservative and Brexit, it shows the obvious trend of those with the most experience of actual life. I was a rabid socialist in my teens until reality worked its magic.

This really takes the biscuit. What was the whole leave campaign based on? Just soundbites and easy slogans. You say that the young are easily influenced by such tactics, but then go on to say that it was the older persons who voted for it. So without information on even what leaving would cost them, like turkeys they voted for Christmas. The money that was spent, maybe illegally on Facebook advertising was aimed at the young, but research has shown that it actually got through to the elderly more. I hate to say it, but it was people of our generation that got the country into this unholy mess, and now as they fight with each other over who should take the blame, they try to blame the EU who were never even asked to explain the difficulties involved until after the event.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

We had a French 18 year student studying politics stay with us for a month last year. She was just as clueless on English politics. Is it something they smoke?

Hints to me of prejudice and bigotry...How you can base a judgment on that I just dont know... but many political commentators do clearly...

Come and spend a day in our very remote village in rural France....the young there particularly are very socially aware...