Off Topic UK / EU Future

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Sovereignty might have an emotional significance, but for all practical purposes it is meaningless to everyone except Parliamentarians.
However, once you have read ‘On Fantasy Island’ by Conor Gearty, it become clear that sovereignty is so circumscribed it has no meaning at all.
I dob’t Think anyone at all who thinks ‘sovereignty’ is important has the remotest idea of the price to be paid in everyday life.
I for one do not enjoy the prospect of not getting my medication regularly just to improve my sense of sovereignty. BTW, this not scaremongering-it is a real if unlikely possibility.
We travel through Portugal Spain and France frequently (Italy and Switzerland occasionally) and stay in France for extended periods. The people we know in each of those countries believe sufficiently that they have sovereignty as in a national identity, sovereignty as in enough influence over their national politicians, and (Switzerland apart where they are always suspicious of foreigners) considerable appreciation for the fact of peace in their land since 1945 brought about by the cooperative expression of the EU.
 
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J T Bodbo said:
Sovereignty might have an emotional significance, but for all practical purposes it is meaningless to everyone except Parliamentarians.
However, once you have read ‘On Fantasy Island’ by Conor Gearty, it become clear that sovereignty is so circumscribed it has no meaning at all.
I dob’t Think anyone at all who thinks ‘sovereignty’ is important has the remotest idea of the price to be paid in everyday life.
I for one do not enjoy the prospect of not getting my medication regularly just to improve my sense of sovereignty. BTW, this not scaremongering-it is a real if unlikely possibility.
We travel through Portugal Spain and France frequently (Italy and Switzerland occasionally) and stay in France for extended periods. The people we know in each of those countries believe sufficiently that they have sovereignty as in a national identity, sovereignty as in enough influence over their national politicians, and (Switzerland apart where they are always suspicious of foreigners) considerable appreciation for the fact of peace in their land since 1945 brought about by the cooperative expression of the EU.
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Whereas you have Brexiters carping on about sovereignty saying 'Why are our laws made by some burocat in Brussels', you also have Scots saying 'Why are our laws made by some burocrat in Westminster' - strangely enough most Brexiters don't consider this one. We also have people up in the outer Hebrides complaining about someone 'Awa in Glasgae' making their laws for them. Where does it end ? Ultimately with the individual - I would personally prefer to live under laws made by myself and my neighbour. Others want their laws to come from as far away as possible - more chance of circumventing them successfully ! The problem is that our democratic traditions arose with the rise of the nation state and so are adapted to that unit - bringing the same democratic traditions onto the supranational level is difficult, but this is the challenge before us.
 
The last few pages have really brought home what a wholly god-awful mess the nation is getting itself into. As if we didn't know already, but...
 
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Leo said:
I think you have hit the nail on the head. Apart from the hoped for trade deals I have seen no argument for an economic brexit. Equally I have seen very few arguments from remainers that did not focus on the economy. There are no forecasts that show we will be a richer nation for brexit. It follows then that unless 17.4 million are crazy they were following their emotion.
Personally I do not see how being in or out of the EU affects our sovereignty on a day to day basis but if you are anti-establishment then perhaps thumbing a nose at the establishment comes close to this.
Immigration is the key emotional issue though. Never mind whether immigrants benefit our economy or take our school places, houses and jobs; if we feel they somehow are changing our culture then we vote against them- again entirely emotional and not economic.
I am not a cynic and still believe that most politicians believe that they are there for the people they represent - be that the working class or landed gentry. Someone who simply wants to feather their own nest can do so far more effectively than on an MPs salary of £77k. I do agree that power is a motivator for many of them. However you can be powerful and still do the best for your constituents /party/ country.
What I do believe is many MPs are simply incompetent and simply follow the leader. When the leader is incompetent and inept and lacks vision you have a recipe for trouble.
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I make you right.

On the immigration issue, it’s been well reported that many areas that have little actual immigration are those who feel the most strongly against it. So what is their issue? It’s not a tangible change to their local environment, so it’s either xenophobia, ignorance or good old fashioned racism. The Tory rags have been drip feeding their readerships with anti migrant stories for literally years, they’ve been driving fear and hatred in an almost constant insidious manner.

That was one emotive focus, the other was Sovereignty, an intangible nonsense of an argument that stood up to literally no scrutiny. Ask any Brexiteer why they voted and they’ll invariably say something like ‘I don’t want to be ruled by Brussels’, then ask them which EU rules that they can’t wait to see the back of when we’ve supposedly ‘taken back control’ as these rules must really impinge on your life eh? Then prepare yourself for a blank stare and absolutely nothing coming back.......after a couple of prompts they’ll then invariably come back with ‘well I don’t want to be part of superstate, and that’s what’s going to happen!’.....as if that’s some form of actual fact, as opposed to merely the parroting of yet another lie chucked out their for the consumption of the gullible and misguided.

That horror Banks and his sidekick Wigmore openly said to the commons select committee that they knew that referendums aren’t won with facts, they’re won with emotion. So they played on it, deliberately.

Shout down any potential fiscal negatives of Brexit as ‘project fear’ whilst at the same time showing posters of queues of immigrants and lying about Turkey joining the EU. Project fear? Oh the irony.
 
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There are many sub-plots going on at present that the tabloids do not discuss. The white paper was sent to the EU early in the week, and it was reported in several places that the PM requested that the EU should not rubbish it immediately. Why? There is common understanding of the state she is in, barely able to hold her own party together let alone lead a country in the most serious negotiations for decades. The EU as an organisation made no comment, although leaders from individual countries shook their heads in bewilderment. They know that the government could collapse at any moment, and would probably rather keep going than start again.

Raab has been seen waving a copy of said white paper which he wants to discuss. It has been made clear that most of this is secondary to sorting out the border in NI, and the fallback position. Whatever he says about being in Brussels more than Davis, he is not doing the work, Ollie Robins is.

We had the story that if the EU thought we didn't hold out for the no deal option they would only offer a bad deal. What actually happened was the EU set up a separate department to deal with that happening. Since the start of the year there have been regular briefings to business of the likely implications for them, and today the documents produced bringing much of it together. So now the UK government is saying that they will produce something of a similar nature in the Autumn. Looks as if the bluff has been called.

The PM is making a visit to the Irish border at present, and is meeting politicians and business leaders. Hopefully she will learn something about the effects on the people who live and work there of her magical solution to the border issue. Why has it taken her two years to go and find out? Like the problems with Gibralter, military bases in Cyprus, NI has been kicked down the road to avoid the crunch with her right wing MPs.
 
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oldfrenchhorn said:
There are many sub-plots going on at present that the tabloids do not discuss. The white paper was sent to the EU early in the week, and it was reported in several places that the PM requested that the EU should not rubbish it immediately. Why? There is common understanding of the state she is in, barely able to hold her own party together let alone lead a country in the most serious negotiations for decades. The EU as an organisation made no comment, although leaders from individual countries shook their heads in bewilderment. They know that the government could collapse at any moment, and would probably rather keep going than start again.

Raab has been seen waving a copy of said white paper which he wants to discuss. It has been made clear that most of this is secondary to sorting out the border in NI, and the fallback position. Whatever he says about being in Brussels more than Davis, he is not doing the work, Ollie Robins is.

We had the story that if the EU thought we didn't hold out for the no deal option they would only offer a bad deal. What actually happened was the EU set up a separate department to deal with that happening. Since the start of the year there have been regular briefings to business of the likely implications for them, and today the documents produced bringing much of it together. So now the UK government is saying that they will produce something of a similar nature in the Autumn. Looks as if the bluff has been called.

The PM is making a visit to the Irish border at present, and is meeting politicians and business leaders. Hopefully she will learn something about the effects on the people who live and work there of her magical solution to the border issue. Why has it taken her two years to go and find out? Like the problems with Gibralter, military bases in Cyprus, NI has been kicked down the road to avoid the crunch with her right wing MPs.
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Oh don't start on those briefings to business - trying to clear responses through Ministers and advisers is going to be a right barrel of laughs <doh>
 
Brexit has ceased to be about merely leaving the EU, it’s now become all about the far right imposing their ideology onto the Nation.
 
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Tobes said:
Brexit has ceased to be about merely leaving the EU, it’s now become all about the far right imposing their ideology onto the Nation.
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The UK should be grateful the political right have a clear understanding of the situation and possess the brains to ensure the best outcome.
 
Tobes said:
Brexit has ceased to be about merely leaving the EU, it’s now become all about the far right imposing their ideology onto the Nation.
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Unfortunately this is all too true. Worth remembering though that in the 70s and 80s the idea of a Brexit was more of a left wing idea - with Michael Foot and Tony Benn both wanting to leave, whereas Thatcher was for staying. The dominant idea of the hard Brexiters today appears to want to turn Britain into a bargain basement country, eroding worker's rights and environmental controls, which is attractive for investment, combined with a kind of off shore tax oasis. A country chasing TTIP style arrangements with everyone, yet blabbing about sovereignty at the same time. Yet it could all be so very different - it could also be a chance for a fundamental breaking away from the neo liberal model which the EU. has enshrined into it's foundation.
 
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superhorns said:
The UK should be grateful the political right have a clear understanding of the situation and possess the brains to ensure the best outcome.
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There are enough Tories who oppose the likes of Boris and Rees Mogg to bring the government down in October if no deal appears to be likely. Many of them may lose their seats but they would have served the UK well.
If the government falls an election is almost certain to return a Labour government - possibly in coalition with SNP and others.
We would then get a brexit where we stay in the CU and SM. Sounds good to me.
 
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Leo said:
There are enough Tories who oppose the likes of Boris and Rees Mogg to bring the government down in October if no deal appears to be likely. Many of them may lose their seats but they would have served the UK well.
If the government falls an election is almost certain to return a Labour government - possibly in coalition with SNP and others.
We would then get a brexit where we stay in the CU and SM. Sounds good to me.
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It sounds like the remainers are more able to make up their minds on the Brexit they want than the leavers are <whistle>
 
Leo said:
There are enough Tories who oppose the likes of Boris and Rees Mogg to bring the government down in October if no deal appears to be likely. Many of them may lose their seats but they would have served the UK well.
If the government falls an election is almost certain to return a Labour government - possibly in coalition with SNP and others.
We would then get a brexit where we stay in the CU and SM. Sounds good to me.
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Too many ifs and buts.

Lets unite behind Jacob and take these Johnny foreigners on. ;)
 
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