Off Topic UK / EU Future

[Deleted.......]

Without wishing to raise a storm, I will report on what I see happening today. Within the past month the UK ambassador held a meeting in Paris to outline where the UK/EU discussion had got to. Similar meetings have been held in other countries. He was talking to expats who were worried about such things as how they could live in one EU country and work in another. The meeting was due to last an hour but extended to three hours. At the end he promised to feed all the information back to government in London.

This is a real problem for many. My son in law works legally in Switzerland and can claim resident status there, although he is registered as a French resident also. Anyone who lives on a border that they cross for work is also affected.

Today David Davis was in front of the Lords Brexit committee that is chaired by someone I know and respect greatly. He said that he had only just become aware of the problems regarding cross border work and living. This problem has been known, discussed at many levels, yet the Brexit chief has only just found out about it. Maybe the three hours spent in Paris with the ambassador were time well spent.

That's Davis being disingenuous. When they agreed the Implementation Period in March there were three issues that went to the wire - European Arrest Warrant, citizens rights and one other which escapes my mind.
The problem they have is that anything positive for a European audience gets jumped on by the leave crowd here and anything positive for a UK audience goes down like a cup of cold tea in Europe.
Unfortunately the chosen solution is to plead ignorance and that's no solution at all.
In fairness, the once the proper talks start we should see some pragmatism in action from both sides. I have and will never agree that they need us more than we need them but there is a balance and hopefully we get more or less to the right side of it.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

The hard-leavers are all raising a storm over the customs union and the Lords' vote.... so disingenuous.....

Very dangerous posturing and rees-mogg being particularly abusive.

Parliament must be allowed to have a view and to influence the direction the PM is taking etc etc

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Whatever is going on will not be good for some people. A couple in the next village bought a ruin of a house, and are slowly rebuilding it when they are there. They have a large motor home that they live in, and drive it around Europe stopping off where they choose. Most years they spend the winter in Spain, but actually are of no fixed abode. They are currently in the dark as to how this will impact on the life they have chosen to live.

 

[Leo]

Whatever is going on will not be good for some people. A couple in the next village bought a ruin of a house, and are slowly rebuilding it when they are there. They have a large motor home that they live in, and drive it around Europe stopping off where they choose. Most years they spend the winter in Spain, but actually are of no fixed abode. They are currently in the dark as to how this will impact on the life they have chosen to live.

They are hardly representative of the average though and it is hardly surprising that if they choose to live such a nomadic existence they will face some confusion. I am not sure the UK should build a policy on them.

 

[Leo]

This is a real problem for many. My son in law works legally in Switzerland and can claim resident status there, although he is registered as a French resident also. Anyone who lives on a border that they cross for work is also affected.

I do not want to sound negative or harsh but again this is not a very typical case is it? A Brit who works in Switzerland (non EU) and can claim residence there, who is also a French resident and presumably a British citizen.
We voted to leave the EU. He has to decide his future citizenship and act accordingly doesn't he?

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Actually there are many thousands who live on borders and because of their rights to live and work where they wish do go from one country to another every day. I think that at the time of the referendum little was said about taking our rights away from us. This is the effect at present, although it might change. Yesterday David Davis said that Guy Verhofstadt was well worth listening to. I agree with that as he has been championing the rights of UK and EU citizens far more than the UK government has. To say that someone should now have to change his life because of an ill informed vote is what this has brought about. He already has changed once because the EMA is moving out of London, and his company has moved out of the UK. It doesn't have a changing effect for me, I am staying put, but I do feel it wrong to impose restrictions on my grandchildren who are already used to free movement.

 

[Leo]

Actually there are many thousands who live on borders and because of their rights to live and work where they wish do go from one country to another every day. I think that at the time of the referendum little was said about taking our rights away from us. This is the effect at present, although it might change. Yesterday David Davis said that Guy Verhofstadt was well worth listening to. I agree with that as he has been championing the rights of UK and EU citizens far more than the UK government has. To say that someone should now have to change his life because of an ill informed vote is what this has brought about. He already has changed once because the EMA is moving out of London, and his company has moved out of the UK. It doesn't have a changing effect for me, I am staying put, but I do feel it wrong to impose restrictions on my grandchildren who are already used to free movement.

Thousands of Brits with EU residency live on borders with non EU countries. Really?
As for talking about changes to someone's life as a result of an ill informed vote. That is what is happening to the millions in the UK who did not vote for and did not want Brexit. We are all affected but it is said that this is democracy. All UK citizens will see their right to cross borders curtailed. That is one totally expected and forseeable result of the brexit vote. I cannot feel more sorry for those who live in the EU than for those of us in the UK.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

Actually there are many thousands who live on borders and because of their rights to live and work where they wish do go from one country to another every day. I think that at the time of the referendum little was said about taking our rights away from us. This is the effect at present, although it might change. Yesterday David Davis said that Guy Verhofstadt was well worth listening to. I agree with that as he has been championing the rights of UK and EU citizens far more than the UK government has. To say that someone should now have to change his life because of an ill informed vote is what this has brought about. He already has changed once because the EMA is moving out of London, and his company has moved out of the UK. It doesn't have a changing effect for me, I am staying put, but I do feel it wrong to impose restrictions on my grandchildren who are already used to free movement.

Agreed.. people have made choices in good faith based on what was the law.... any backward step towards freedom of movement will cause isolation for our country

Thus is all very finely edged as different people voted for BREXIT for different reasons

and most people did NOT vote for:
Restricting the movement of UK residents in the EU
Exiting the customs union

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Thousands of Brits with EU residency live on borders with non EU countries. Really?
As for talking about changes to someone's life as a result of an ill informed vote. That is what is happening to the millions in the UK who did not vote for and did not want Brexit. We are all affected but it is said that this is democracy. All UK citizens will see their right to cross borders curtailed. That is one totally expected and forseeable result of the brexit vote. I cannot feel more sorry for those who live in the EU than for those of us in the UK.

I didn't say living on borders with non-EU countries. Thousands do however live in one country and work in another, example Spain and Gibraltar, France and Belgium. There are even commuters making the trek between Paris and London on a daily basis. "Nothing will change, you will not even notice the difference", people were told. Would they have voted the way they did if they had been told they were to have some of their rights stripped from them? There are now 2 million young people who could vote who were too young at the date of the referendum. Will they thank the older generation for taking away rights that they enjoyed? If not angry for oneself, then people should stand up and say this is wrong for our children.

 

[Leo]

I didn't say living on borders with non-EU countries. Thousands do however live in one country and work in another, example Spain and Gibraltar, France and Belgium. There are even commuters making the trek between Paris and London on a daily basis. "Nothing will change, you will not even notice the difference", people were told. Would they have voted the way they did if they had been told they were to have some of their rights stripped from them? There are now 2 million young people who could vote who were too young at the date of the referendum. Will they thank the older generation for taking away rights that they enjoyed? If not angry for oneself, then people should stand up and say this is wrong for our children.

I know you did not say it - that was why I queried it - I cannot see what difference it makes living on borders that are all within the EU.
I do not understand who said "nothing will change, you will not notice the difference" The whole brexit debate was about immigration - surely we all knew that if the UK was not in the EU then things would change.
I am sorry but I see no reason why you think that UK citizens living outside the UK would be innoculated from the effects that those of us in the UK are being handed. We have all lost out - it is one of the major arguments people had against voting for brexit. But like it or lump it people did. We all live with the consequences.
I do not buy the old versus young argument. Too many young people did not vote - maybe if more young people cared they could have found those extra votes to keep us in the EU. You imply the older generation are to blame. You have no idea how your new 2 millionwould vote - if they even would nor how those who have died voted. In any event a referendum is a vote at a point in time. You had better ask Cologne to defend them as he is a great champion of them in Switzerland - apparently the best democracy in the world.

I realise you are angry Frenchie - but so are millions of us who live in the UK - voting to leave the EU was bound to be terrible for those of us who had half a brain. On a personal note my son decided enough was enough and emigrated to Australia rather than stay in an increasingly xenophobic country like this. Probably as a result my wife and I will never see him again. So please remember there are millions who have cause to regret the referendum - but we are told it was the democratic will of the people.

 

[colognehornet]

I know you did not say it - that was why I queried it - I cannot see what difference it makes living on borders that are all within the EU.
I do not understand who said "nothing will change, you will not notice the difference" The whole brexit debate was about immigration - surely we all knew that if the UK was not in the EU then things would change.
I am sorry but I see no reason why you think that UK citizens living outside the UK would be innoculated from the effects that those of us in the UK are being handed. We have all lost out - it is one of the major arguments people had against voting for brexit. But like it or lump it people did. We all live with the consequences.
I do not buy the old versus young argument. Too many young people did not vote - maybe if more young people cared they could have found those extra votes to keep us in the EU. You imply the older generation are to blame. You have no idea how your new 2 millionwould vote - if they even would nor how those who have died voted. In any event a referendum is a vote at a point in time. You had better ask Cologne to defend them as he is a great champion of them in Switzerland - apparently the best democracy in the world.

I realise you are angry Frenchie - but so are millions of us who live in the UK - voting to leave the EU was bound to be terrible for those of us who had half a brain. On a personal note my son decided enough was enough and emigrated to Australia rather than stay in an increasingly xenophobic country like this. Probably as a result my wife and I will never see him again. So please remember there are millions who have cause to regret the referendum - but we are told it was the democratic will of the people.

You will find that referendums in Switzerland work in a very different way to the one taken in the UK. Leo. The first big difference is that for most of them they need a 'double majority' ie. a majority of the entire electorate is needed - non voters are treated as quasi 'voting for no change'. In some cases they also need a minimum number of Cantons voting for change as well. It would be impossible for some parts of the country to impose a judgement on other parts. In terms of freedom of movement for us in the EU. I will still be able to cross EU. borders freely with my British passport - but I would not have the automatic right to take up permanent residence in eg. Belgium, or to take a full time job there - for this I would need to use my German passport. I managed to get German nationality without giving up my British passport - in the future that may be more difficult, because Germany only recognizes dual nationality with other EU. countries. Two things bother me - one is the question of whether British nationals living in the EU. would lose voting rights (ie. in local and EU. elections) in their adopted countries, and secondly the problems of having pensions in several countries. In a few years time I will have a right to a part of my pension from the UK. a part from Germany, and a smaller part from the Netherlands - all very complicated. The question of voting is for me subject to International law (ie. acquired rights) - can a law abiding citizen be disenfranchized in this way ? For me it is no problem because of my German passport - but what of the others ? People like Frenchie who, at present, can vote in French local elections and EU ones.

 

[Leo]

But that is the consequence of the UK leaving the EU.
Anyone who enjoyed freedom of travel or the ability to go and live in an EU country has lost that.
For Brits living in the EU they are faced with a choice about their future in terms of nationality. Did they think that when the UK left the EU they and their children and their children's children would be able to act as if the UK were still part of the EU? Of course not. All of us have been forced to come to terms with a new reality. People like you and Frenchie cannot ignore the loss of the UK. You have a long term decision to make. Will you return to the UK eventually or become citizens of an EU country? While we were in the EU you had the benefit that brought. One of the first things that was raised after the brexit vote was in fact the situation of EU citizens in the UK and the government were asked to guarantee their status. In fact the government rightly refused until the EU made a reciprocal commitment - but Labour would have ignored UK citizens abroad at the time.
Still there is a new world and like it or not we have to realise that what we had has gone. I am going to assume that 100% of Brits in the EU voted to Remain so all are disappointed as opposed to only 48% of Brits in the UK

 

[yorkshirehornet]

But that is the consequence of the UK leaving the EU.
Anyone who enjoyed freedom of travel or the ability to go and live in an EU country has lost that.
For Brits living in the EU they are faced with a choice about their future in terms of nationality. Did they think that when the UK left the EU they and their children and their children's children would be able to act as if the UK were still part of the EU? Of course not. All of us have been forced to come to terms with a new reality. People like you and Frenchie cannot ignore the loss of the UK. You have a long term decision to make. Will you return to the UK eventually or become citizens of an EU country? While we were in the EU you had the benefit that brought. One of the first things that was raised after the brexit vote was in fact the situation of EU citizens in the UK and the government were asked to guarantee their status. In fact the government rightly refused until the EU made a reciprocal commitment - but Labour would have ignored UK citizens abroad at the time.
Still there is a new world and like it or not we have to realise that what we had has gone. I am going to assume that 100% of Brits in the EU voted to Remain so all are disappointed as opposed to only 48% of Brits in the UK

It is only a consequence if that is the deal you broker.....

Conversely, my french teacher at univ and her family are all french citizens ... she has live here for 15+ years...... she has rights too.

I also dont buy the who blinks first statements put out by politicians to appear strong ..... and to link that with what Labour 'would have done' is a non sequitur in my opinion.... this is about human rights and not politics....
I hope I am making sense here....

 

[Leo]

It is only a consequence if that is the deal you broker.....

Conversely, my french teacher at univ and her family are all french citizens ... she has live here for 15+ years...... she has rights too.

I also dont buy the who blinks first statements put out by politicians to appear strong ..... and to link that with what Labour 'would have done' is a non sequitur in my opinion.... this is about human rights and not politics....
I hope I am making sense here....

It is nothing about appearing strong nor blinking first. It is about reciprocal rights. Can you imagine the consequences if the UK had guaranteed EU citizens rights and then the EU had kicked Brits out? Why would you not expect both sets of citizens to be given the same assurances at the same time?
Of course a person living in a foreign country expects to have rights. But if the country they are living in changes radically then maybe they will no longer like it there.
OK - maybe it is not about politics - but I would have expected ALL parties to want to make sure reciprocal rights were given? Would you have been happy if they were not?
Leaving the EU was about leaving behind most immigration rights. As such it was a direct and complete consequence. Totally inevitable. What did you think brexit meant? That everything would continue the same? I knew it would not which is why I voted Remain. Unfortunately I lost. I also think you are being slightly disingenuous by saying it is not about party politics and then implying the consequences were the result of TM's government. Everything is party political.
Not least windrush.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

But that is the consequence of the UK leaving the EU.
Anyone who enjoyed freedom of travel or the ability to go and live in an EU country has lost that.
For Brits living in the EU they are faced with a choice about their future in terms of nationality. Did they think that when the UK left the EU they and their children and their children's children would be able to act as if the UK were still part of the EU? Of course not. All of us have been forced to come to terms with a new reality. People like you and Frenchie cannot ignore the loss of the UK. You have a long term decision to make. Will you return to the UK eventually or become citizens of an EU country? While we were in the EU you had the benefit that brought. One of the first things that was raised after the brexit vote was in fact the situation of EU citizens in the UK and the government were asked to guarantee their status. In fact the government rightly refused until the EU made a reciprocal commitment - but Labour would have ignored UK citizens abroad at the time.
Still there is a new world and like it or not we have to realise that what we had has gone. I am going to assume that 100% of Brits in the EU voted to Remain so all are disappointed as opposed to only 48% of Brits in the UK

Many people on the leave side were putting forward the Norway option which would have meant that the four freedoms, including freedom of movement would be retained. There is still no agreed position on what the way forward should be, so therefore it is not known what the future holds for anyone. Having been around politicians for donkey's years, I know that if there is a proposal put forward that they disagree with they will try and amend that proposal. That is exactly what we are seeing at present, and for once the party whips have lost control. We have seen a steady withdrawal from the red lines, and judging by the reaction of people like Rees-Mogg they know it is not going to be the hard withdrawal they crave for. Once again today there has been no agreement on the way forward.
It saddens me, but doesn't surprise me that people no longer feel happy within the UK. I heard plenty of complaints in my two weeks in England. I tried to avoid the subject of Brexit, but people I met were all moaning about it. Ask them have they been in contact with their MP to express their views, and for some reason it hasn't crossed their minds. My suggestion to them was to make sure they did. Mine actually has not bothered to answer my points to her. Quelle surprise!

 

[yorkshirehornet]

It is nothing about appearing strong nor blinking first. It is about reciprocal rights. Can you imagine the consequences if the UK had guaranteed EU citizens rights and then the EU had kicked Brits out? Why would you not expect both sets of citizens to be given the same assurances at the same time?
Of course a person living in a foreign country expects to have rights. But if the country they are living in changes radically then maybe they will no longer like it there.
OK - maybe it is not about politics - but I would have expected ALL parties to want to make sure reciprocal rights were given? Would you have been happy if they were not?
Leaving the EU was about leaving behind most immigration rights. As such it was a direct and complete consequence. Totally inevitable. What did you think brexit meant? That everything would continue the same? I knew it would not which is why I voted Remain. Unfortunately I lost. I also think you are being slightly hypocritcal by saying it is not about party politics and then implying the consequences were the result of TM's government. Everything is party political.
Not least windrush.

Too much there for me to do justice to in an answer Leo

If it about reciprocal rights someone has to make the first offer... the deal does not come from nowhere.... we created the mess so surely we should have a little humility in our dealings...I know that is hard for some...

I take your point about immigration as an issue... but that is not the same as freedom of movement... and other rights such as to right to work etc

As for consequence people voted for such differing reasons... nothing is a given is it? That is why I abhor the posturing of rees-smog and others who are making out the Lords are betraying the will of the people because they wont sign on the dotted line on the customs union... which i am sure many Brexit voters had not really considered beyond the headlines

 

[colognehornet]

It is nothing about appearing strong nor blinking first. It is about reciprocal rights. Can you imagine the consequences if the UK had guaranteed EU citizens rights and then the EU had kicked Brits out? Why would you not expect both sets of citizens to be given the same assurances at the same time?
Of course a person living in a foreign country expects to have rights. But if the country they are living in changes radically then maybe they will no longer like it there.
OK - maybe it is not about politics - but I would have expected ALL parties to want to make sure reciprocal rights were given? Would you have been happy if they were not?
Leaving the EU was about leaving behind most immigration rights. As such it was a direct and complete consequence. Totally inevitable. What did you think brexit meant? That everything would continue the same? I knew it would not which is why I voted Remain. Unfortunately I lost. I also think you are being slightly hypocritcal by saying it is not about party politics and then implying the consequences were the result of TM's government. Everything is party political.
Not least windrush.

I have referred to this before Leo. There are so called 'acquired rights' which are guaranteed by the Vienna Convention and which stand above both EU. and British law - these stipulate exactly which rights cannot be taken away from immigrants - depending on length of residence. Too little has actually been spoken about these rights, because they have priority over Brussels and Westminster.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

I have referred to this before Leo. There are so called 'acquired rights' which are guaranteed by the Vienna Convention and which stand above both EU. and British law - these stipulate exactly which rights cannot be taken away from immigrants - depending on length of residence. Too little has actually been spoken about these rights, because they have priority over Brussels and Westminster.

ah that is what i was trying to get to Cologne.........

 

[Leo]

I have referred to this before Leo. There are so called 'acquired rights' which are guaranteed by the Vienna Convention and which stand above both EU. and British law - these stipulate exactly which rights cannot be taken away from immigrants - depending on length of residence. Too little has actually been spoken about these rights, because they have priority over Brussels and Westminster.

I have no knowledge of what is or is not being agreed. I doubt anyone has. However I strongly doubt the UK will walk away from international obligations if that is what "acquired rights"are. So they will not be under threat and are no part of brexit.

 

[Leo]

Many people on the leave side were putting forward the Norway option which would have meant that the four freedoms, including freedom of movement would be retained.

You are right that the Norway and Canadian models were put forward by some. However even Cameron admitted we would not remain in the customs union or single market. Anyone who seriously thought we would leave the EU but remain tied to its institution has to have been fairly optimistic. I am sure all Remainers feared that the cry to be free from immigration controls, the ECJ and to be able to do trade deals with the rest of the world were key planks of brexit.
Anyone who voted brexit on the basis we would remain subject to the ECJ, subject to the immigration rules, within the single market and customs union; paying still vast sums into Brussels and unable to do independent trade deals was just stupid. Why on earth would we quit the best club we have ever been in to be in a position where we no longer were a member with a vote but had less of the benefits but none of the so called beneifts of not being subject to Brussels?
I am sorry but brexit came with consequences and the 48% are paying the bill.