Off Topic UK / EU Future

[oldfrenchhorn]

My belief that this is about reasoned argument is incorrect. For many people details are for others to sort out, they simply go with a newspaper headline, or a soundbite that they might have heard on TV or radio. I know people who never ever watch a news programme, preferring to be "entertained". WTO rules, and they wouldn't know what you were talking about. It is about appealing to emotions a select committee were told by UKIP funders. It doesn't matter if it is the truth, you just have to find the words that stick with people.

 

[Tobes]

Have you tried having a rational debate with a brexiter?

Yes, many times

It’s virtually impossible to debate with people who’s entire position is based on ‘beliefs’ as opposed to things called facts. It’s like herding cats.

I still don’t get why Rees Mogg et al haven’t been called out over that obvious and blatant contradiction though.

 

[Leo]

My cats are relatively easy in comparison - though not the mog you mention.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

If you had noticed amongst all the World Cup fervour going on today, the latest plan produced at Chequers last Friday has already run into trouble. This time Rees-Mogg and his mates have laid down amendments that will stop it being workable.
We have also had Fox telling a government committee that unless the EU member states agree with the Chequers document then the voters in their countries will eject them from power. He must be far more clever than I gave him credit for to know that.
Also HMRC have said that no preparations have been made to get the 200,000 companies who have never had to deal with customs ready to do so. The paperwork involved is likely to cost them £20 billion p.a.

It is obvious that the country is no nearer knowing where it is going, with opposing factions still poles apart, so how can the country be brought back together again? The press this side of the Channel believe that it cannot be too long before the Government fall, but I suspect that the long summer recess is seen as the target to get to, and start up the arguments again at a later date.

 

[superhorns]

Rees Mogg and others can see the May/Robbins proposal is a departure from her previously clearly stated position. It would lead to a 'Hotel California' Brexit which does not respect or represent the aims of the vast number that voted for a proper departure from the EU. The EU negotiators would love to rubbish this proposal as they have done to all previous ones but realise May has nowhere to go after giving almost everything away already.

There is a small cabal in Downing St, including Ollie Robbins, who never wanted Brexit in the first place. These saboteurs need to be removed so proper negotiations can urgently take place.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The new Brexit Secretary has been giving an interview this morning and said this. "For those that are either criticising or carping or whatever else, they need to come back with credible alternatives." He went on.
It was "true" that the UK would no longer be part of setting the directives in the common rule book it would agree to under the proposals.

But he said Britain would "have a chance to influence it" "It's not right to say we will be a rule-taker in the sense that's normally used."

This sounds like he is playing with words, but he is right to say that the small number of MPs who want more of a break from the EU have still not suggested any credible alternative.

 

[superhorns]

The new Brexit Secretary has been giving an interview this morning and said this. "For those that are either criticising or carping or whatever else, they need to come back with credible alternatives." He went on.
It was "true" that the UK would no longer be part of setting the directives in the common rule book it would agree to under the proposals.

But he said Britain would "have a chance to influence it" "It's not right to say we will be a rule-taker in the sense that's normally used."

This sounds like he is playing with words, but he is right to say that the small number of MPs who want more of a break from the EU have still not suggested any credible alternative.

The alternative is to withhold the ransom money until a sensible trade deal is agreed. It is the EU's fault so far as to the lack of progress because their overriding aim is to ensure the UK is seen to be much worse off. This approach does mean business and job losses for EU member states but they consider it is a price worth paying.

A successful negotiated outcome requires two parties actively looking for a deal, alas the EU is looking for total capitulation by the UK which is not acceptable to many who voted for Brexit.

 

[J T Bodbo]

The alternative is to withhold the ransom money until a sensible trade deal is agreed. It is the EU's fault so far as to the lack of progress because their overriding aim is to ensure the UK is seen to be much worse off. This approach does mean business and job losses for EU member states but they consider it is a price worth paying.

A successful negotiated outcome requires two parties actively looking for a deal, alas the EU is looking for total capitulation by the UK which is not acceptable to many who voted for Brexit.

About as impressive a misreading of the situation as there could possibly be.
So far as I can tell, nobody who voted to leave has the remotest idea what the future might look like, in practical terms or seemed to care if the EU had a view which protected the EU’s project.
In the absence of any constructive proposal whatsoever in terms of NI , (or Gilbralter also) it might have dawned that the hard Brexit outcome is impossible without scuppering the Good Friday agreement, Irish borders, and any sense of cooperation in customs , trade and smooth flow of goods. It probably dawned on the thinking members of the cabinet some time ago.
Perhaps the best outcome might be if all the ‘hard’ Brexiteers set sail a la the ‘Plimouth brethren ‘ to the equivalent of America-and set up their own country-perhaps one of the many outposts of empire would be happy to accept them.

 

[superhorns]

About as impressive a misreading of the situation as there could possibly be.
So far as I can tell, nobody who voted to leave has the remotest idea what the future might look like, in practical terms or seemed to care if the EU had a view which protected the EU’s project.
In the absence of any constructive proposal whatsoever in terms of NI , (or Gilbralter also) it might have dawned that the hard Brexit outcome is impossible without scuppering the Good Friday agreement, Irish borders, and any sense of cooperation in customs , trade and smooth flow of goods. It probably dawned on the thinking members of the cabinet some time ago.
Perhaps the best outcome might be if all the ‘hard’ Brexiteers set sail a la the ‘Plimouth brethren ‘ to the equivalent of America-and set up their own country-perhaps one of the many outposts of empire would be happy to accept them.

The EU have used the Irish border as a useful stumbling block. There is no reason why the UK cannot have a Brexit that people voted for and a sensible trade deal with the EU. It is the EU's insistence on a policy to cause as much grief to the UK as possible to then subsequently frighten off any other potential escapees.

The 'hard' Brexiteers are trying to regain their own country so maybe the europhiles should depart to mainland Europe.
Unfortunately not many jobs available in France, Spain, Italy, Greece etc but plenty of cheap properties that nobody wants.

 

[superhorns]

We need the government to release details of the proper white paper worked on for months by David Davis before it was doctored by Ollie Robbins and Angela Merkel.

 

[J T Bodbo]

The EU have used the Irish border as a useful stumbling block. There is no reason why the UK cannot have a Brexit that people voted for and a sensible trade deal with the EU. It is the EU's insistence on a policy to cause as much grief to the UK as possible to then subsequently frighten off any other potential escapees.

The 'hard' Brexiteers are trying to regain their own country so maybe the europhiles should depart to mainland Europe.
Unfortunately not many jobs available in France, Spain, Italy, Greece etc but plenty of cheap properties that nobody wants.

It is perhaps ironic that the UK is the only country that cannot leave the EU in any way it chooses-precisely because of the commitments to NI. Doubly ironic that NI voted to remain. It would be supremely arrogant (not that that seems to deter ‘hard’ Brexiteers) for Parliament to ditch the commitments to NI when their say is limited to their MPs.
BTW, the exit bill is NOT a ransom. It reflects all the commitments on payments into the EU made by the UK on the basis that the EU continued to exist.

 

[superhorns]

It is perhaps ironic that the UK is the only country that cannot leave the EU in any way it chooses-precisely because of the commitments to NI. Doubly ironic that NI voted to remain. It would be supremely arrogant (not that that seems to deter ‘hard’ Brexiteers) for Parliament to ditch the commitments to NI when their say is limited to their MPs.
BTW, the exit bill is NOT a ransom. It reflects all the commitments on payments into the EU made by the UK on the basis that the EU continued to exist.

The HoLs all party committee on Brexit concluded their was nothing legally to pay once we left. Payments should only be made once a satisfactory trade deal has been agreed. If only we had a politician with negotiating skills and bottle like Trump. Nato member states have immediately agreed to raise their contributions towards the agreed 2% due to his bold stand, it makes the previous Presidents look pathetic.

 

[colognehornet]

The HoLs all party committee on Brexit concluded their was nothing legally to pay once we left. Payments should only be made once a satisfactory trade deal has been agreed. If only we had a politician with negotiating skills and bottle like Trump. Nato member states have immediately agreed to raise their contributions towards the agreed 2% due to his bold stand, it makes the previous Presidents look pathetic.

I would think that the question of the legality of oustanding payments would be better decided by a neutral body SH.

 

[superhorns]

I would think that the question of the legality of oustanding payments would be better decided by a neutral body SH.

Maybe it will be, could take years to decide.

 

[superhorns]

It would seriously test the 'unity' in the EU members if the UK left without a deal and the EU with a massive financial black hole to fill. The idea of a 'no deal' is becoming more appealing.

 

[colognehornet]

It would seriously test the 'unity' in the EU members if the UK left without a deal and the EU with a massive financial black hole to fill. The idea of a 'no deal' is becoming more appealing.

Not sure about the 'black hole' SH. If you take Britain's rebate into account (nearly two thirds of what it paid in) then Britain was only about the 7th or 8th largest payer in per head of population. Bearing in mind that this rebate was paid by all of the other 27 members, according to their GDP. then some of them will be relieved - I am sure that Poland will not mind not having to subsidize the UK. rebate.

 

[Deleted.......]

Rees Mogg and others can see the May/Robbins proposal is a departure from her previously clearly stated position. It would lead to a 'Hotel California' Brexit which does not respect or represent the aims of the vast number that voted for a proper departure from the EU. The EU negotiators would love to rubbish this proposal as they have done to all previous ones but realise May has nowhere to go after giving almost everything away already.

There is a small cabal in Downing St, including Ollie Robbins, who never wanted Brexit in the first place. These saboteurs need to be removed so proper negotiations can urgently take place.

Ollie Robbins is a fine negotiator with an eye for detail and will try to secure the deal he's asked to. You have absolutely no clue about what he has and hasn't been pushing during negotiations

 

[yorkshirehornet]

It is perhaps ironic that the UK is the only country that cannot leave the EU in any way it chooses-precisely because of the commitments to NI. Doubly ironic that NI voted to remain. It would be supremely arrogant (not that that seems to deter ‘hard’ Brexiteers) for Parliament to ditch the commitments to NI when their say is limited to their MPs.
BTW, the exit bill is NOT a ransom. It reflects all the commitments on payments into the EU made by the UK on the basis that the EU continued to exist.

How a responsible country can even consider not keeping to its commitments is abhorrent. Mind you exactly what our so called friend across the pond is doing. I guess that is why to me the moral perspective is so important..

Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk

 

[superhorns]

Ollie Robbins is a fine negotiator with an eye for detail and will try to secure the deal he's asked to. You have absolutely no clue about what he has and hasn't been pushing during negotiations

David Davis knows exactly what has been happening and has resigned because of being sidelined by Robbins on May's instructions. I would fully expect civil servants to close ranks after being rumbled.

Not me guv!

 

[superhorns]

How a responsible country can even consider not keeping to its commitments is abhorrent. Mind you exactly what our so called friend across the pond is doing. I guess that is why to me the moral perspective is so important..

Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk

Trump is absolutely correct in demanding equal trade tariffs and a move from all Nato members to contribute fairly towards defence. He has put previous Presidents to shame in not addressing these important issues sooner. Germany in particular has been freewheeling at the expense of others.

I would expect Trump's bold moves and future success in these areas will boost his popularity at home leading to a second term. The UK needs a leader with as much backbone, step forward Mr Rees -Mogg.