Off Topic UK / EU Future

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superhorns said:
Grieve's claim his local party branch has been infiltrated by UKIP has been rubbished by the local activists who yesterday gave him a vote of no confidence. The remain extremist has clearly lost the support of many of his constituents by his wrecking actions. Most of the support for UKIP originally came from traditional Tory voters who have now returned to vote Conservative once the referendum was successfully secured. UKIP has now shrunk to LibDem levels of support.
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Of course the local activists have rubbished it. They are the ones who have infiltrated the party.
The figures show that most UKIP support came from the disadvantaged part of the population who normally voted for Labour. Yes UKIP has shrunk, with some returning to their Labour roots, but others are now looking for something that looks respectable, but they can crawl inside of. Some people are bright enough to realise that one issue parties will never get anywhere, but they can create plenty of trouble from within an established party. Lewis has seen what is happening, and is quickly trying to knock it on the head. You seem to be trying to ignore the problem, or even support them. You have told us you never supported UKIP, so do you now support your Chairman?
 
Although I have supported the Tory most of the time while I live in the UK, I am getting very uneasy to vote for them in the future. The Tory membership is decreasing, the age profile is increasing, which makes the chances of being hijacked by a minority activist group much more likely - i.e. similar what the Momentum group is doing to Labour. The news today that reminder Dominic Grieve lost a confidence vote and may even be deselected is a case in point. Because the local party only has a few hundred members, according to the news that an influx of 100 or so new (UKIP aligned ?? not confirmed) members over the last year has tipped the balance. I would not be surprised that the new Independent Group may do quite well in the future, as prople like me seeking the center ground !!
 
dyhk said:
Although I have supported the Tory most of the time while I live in the UK, I am getting very uneasy to vote for them in the future. The Tory membership is decreasing, the age profile is increasing, which makes the chances of being hijacked by a minority activist group much more likely - i.e. similar what the Momentum group is doing to Labour. The news today that reminder Dominic Grieve lost a confidence vote and may even be deselected is a case in point. Because the local party only has a few hundred members, according to the news that an influx of 100 or so new (UKIP aligned ?? not confirmed) members over the last year has tipped the balance. I would not be surprised that the new Independent Group may do quite well in the future, as prople like me seeking the center ground !!
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I hear so many times that people do not feel at ease with the two main parties that they are looking for an alternative. There has been a lot of talk about MPs trying to reach a common ground over Brexit, but party loyalties still hold strong. Dominic Greive argued strongly that the government would regret it if they put a leaving date on the face of the withdrawal bill, because if more time was needed they would be boxing themselves in. Look at the response of those who have turned against the government as they have failed to meet that date. I still believe that most of the population want sensible middle of the road policies from government that do not make the poorest believe that the richest are getting an unfair advantages, and the richer ones not feel guilty about unfair treatment of the weaker. Centre ground politics is the normal in most countries until some form of crisis. Many have struggled to get back to that centre ground since the financial crisis that started in the USA.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
Of course the local activists have rubbished it. They are the ones who have infiltrated the party.
The figures show that most UKIP support came from the disadvantaged part of the population who normally voted for Labour. Yes UKIP has shrunk, with some returning to their Labour roots, but others are now looking for something that looks respectable, but they can crawl inside of. Some people are bright enough to realise that one issue parties will never get anywhere, but they can create plenty of trouble from within an established party. Lewis has seen what is happening, and is quickly trying to knock it on the head. You seem to be trying to ignore the problem, or even support them. You have told us you never supported UKIP, so do you now support your Chairman?
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The LibDems became a one issue party at the last election, namely anti Brexit and they bombed badly. UKIP was set up solely to achieve a referendum on membership of the EU and to support subsequent withdrawal. In terms of achieving their goal they were spectacularly successful. On UKIP's eventual demise, half of UKIP voters returned to the Tories with only 12% of traditional Labour voters returning. Most UKIP voters were actually moderate Tories which probably explains Cameron's decision to thankfully hold the long promised referendum.
 
superhorns said:
The LibDems became a one issue party at the last election, namely anti Brexit and they bombed badly. UKIP was set up solely to achieve a referendum on membership of the EU and to support subsequent withdrawal. In terms of achieving their goal they were spectacularly successful. On UKIP's eventual demise, half of UKIP voters returned to the Tories with only 12% of traditional Labour voters returning. Most UKIP voters were actually moderate Tories which probably explains Cameron's decision to thankfully hold the long promised referendum.
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what a good decision that turned out to be <doh>
 
BBC suggestion nothing has been approved but have to see I guess.

Even the MPs themselves must be getting a fed up of having to keep voting...​
 
Former Tory Minister, Anne Widdecombe said last night " We've got the worst prime minister since Anthony Eden. We've got the worst leader of the opposition in the entire history of the Labour Party and we've got the worst Parliament since Oliver Cromwell"

Quite difficult to argue with that.
 
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superhorns said:
Former Tory Minister, Anne Widdecombe said last night " We've got the worst prime minister since Anthony Eden. We've got the worst leader of the opposition in the entire history of the Labour Party and we've got the worst Parliament since Oliver Cromwell"

Quite difficult to argue with that.
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Maybe this has something to do with the system rather than the individuals concerned. We know that Parliament does not want a Hard Brexit, it does not want any of the Soft Brexit options which have been presented, it does not want to accept May's deal, it does not want a second referendum, and it does not want to scrap Brexit altogether. There must be a majority for something, so why are they not able to find it ?
 
colognehornet said:
Maybe this has something to do with the system rather than the individuals concerned. We know that Parliament does not want a Hard Brexit, it does not want any of the Soft Brexit options which have been presented, it does not want to accept May's deal, it does not want a second referendum, and it does not want to scrap Brexit altogether. There must be a majority for something, so why are they not able to find it ?
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Maybe it has something to do with the UK not being used to minority government. It most countries where it is the norm, you do not get the largest party believing that they can get all their own way. Sometimes it can take months if not years for parties to come together and find a common ground that they can take forward. The Tory party currently can not agree within what it wants, and to have a leader who cannot see that she has talked the government into a blind alley is far from helpful. Party bosses are telling her to avoid a general election at all costs as they would be decimated. They do not have the funds, SH throwing his raffle tickets in the bin has not helped, the foot soldiers, or the policies to win one. Labour should be out of sight by now, but to sit on the fence as they have done has been a disaster for them. People from around the world are looking in on the current situation and shaking their heads in disbelief that a country that was once a leader has now slumped to such depths. Working together is what most countries and businesses do these days, but for some reason some in the UK think that they know better.
 
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oldfrenchhorn said:
Maybe it has something to do with the UK not being used to minority government. It most countries where it is the norm, you do not get the largest party believing that they can get all their own way. Sometimes it can take months if not years for parties to come together and find a common ground that they can take forward. The Tory party currently can not agree within what it wants, and to have a leader who cannot see that she has talked the government into a blind alley is far from helpful. Party bosses are telling her to avoid a general election at all costs as they would be decimated. They do not have the funds, SH throwing his raffle tickets in the bin has not helped, the foot soldiers, or the policies to win one. Labour should be out of sight by now, but to sit on the fence as they have done has been a disaster for them. People from around the world are looking in on the current situation and shaking their heads in disbelief that a country that was once a leader has now slumped to such depths. Working together is what most countries and businesses do these days, but for some reason some in the UK think that they know better.
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The tradition of being able to work together is confined to some of the smaller parties in the UK. (like Ukip and the EDL <doh>). Our political system doesn't lend itself to cross party cooperation, because it is geared to the idea of winner takes all. There is no other European country where a party with only 100,000 members, and 37% of the popular vote could create such havoc - and the extreme centralization of UK political power makes the whole thing worse. The indicative voting is turning into a farce - so eg. Labour is voting against initiatives purely on the basis that they come from the SNP. Others are voting only for their preferred ideal choice and nothing else. So the supporters of a second referendum are voting against anything which could lead to a soft Brexit, and the same is true the other way around (thus both paving the way for a hard Brexit). Maybe they should have a motion saying 'This House believes the sun will rise tomorrow' - some would still vote against it, if it was suggested by the wrong party.
 
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colognehornet said:
The tradition of being able to work together is confined to some of the smaller parties in the UK. (like Ukip and the EDL <doh>). Our political system doesn't lend itself to cross party cooperation, because it is geared to the idea of winner takes all. There is no other European country where a party with only 100,000 members, and 37% of the popular vote could create such havoc - and the extreme centralization of UK political power makes the whole thing worse. The indicative voting is turning into a farce - so eg. Labour is voting against initiatives purely on the basis that they come from the SNP. Others are voting only for their preferred ideal choice and nothing else. So the supporters of a second referendum are voting against anything which could lead to a soft Brexit, and the same is true the other way around (thus both paving the way for a hard Brexit). Maybe they should have a motion saying 'This House believes the sun will rise tomorrow' - some would still vote against it, if it was suggested by the wrong party.
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The way to solve all of the issues is to have a healthy Tory majority, you know it makes sense.
 
So after the all day cabinet meeting we have ministers locked in No. 10 so that May can get her version of what has happened over before anyone else. Her moment has come. Will she paint over her red lines?
Meanwhile Nick Boles who quit the Tory party yesterday has said he was promised support from others on his side of the chamber, who went back on those promises. Quelle Surprise! He also said that this is all about keeping the party together, not doing right for the country. A true statesman would have been mindful of her responsibility to the country first of all on such a major decision. Huge difference between council tax increases and leaving the EU.
 
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Government of national unity with support from Labour. She now is trying to go for a soft Brexit. She clearly has lost the plot and is trying to spread the blame. Quite hopeless.
 
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Well looking at her statement again she is still trying to put everything off as long as possible. She has dumped the right wing, something she should have done ages ago, and judging by their reaction they will continue to be trouble. They have been for forty years, it has just taken the current PM a long time to work out how to deal with them. How much of the Labour policy she takes on board is unknown, but going by the talks between Corbyn and the EU, if she adopts much of his policy there is a way out of the mess. She has well and truly split her party, so she might just as well work with him and try to put the country back together, although that will take a very long time in my opinion.
She has said that she wants to get out before the EUP elections, but has said that returning officers should prepare for them, and any money spent will be reimbursed. Sounds like the red lines are being slowly erased without wishing to admit it.
 
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superhorns said:
Former Tory Minister, Anne Widdecombe said last night " We've got the worst prime minister since Anthony Eden. We've got the worst leader of the opposition in the entire history of the Labour Party and we've got the worst Parliament since Oliver Cromwell"

Quite difficult to argue with that.
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Arguably so. Definitely goes back to Cameron and nazi nige, whatever...
 
superhorns said:
Former Tory Minister, Anne Widdecombe said last night " We've got the worst prime minister since Anthony Eden. We've got the worst leader of the opposition in the entire history of the Labour Party and we've got the worst Parliament since Oliver Cromwell"

Quite difficult to argue with that.
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.. And how did we get in this mess?

Nothing to do with the, 'natural party of government' was it?
[emoji12]

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