Top 4 or FA Cup?

[fatletiss]

Doesn’t negate the point that a club struggling in the league or even in a lower division can win the FA Cup at any point. Like we could – and did – win at that point in 1976. Not sure you can pick that apart - I didn’t say ‘will’. A team 30 points off the top six with eg. six games left can’t, for example, qualify for Europe. That same team can win the FA Cup if in the draw. With this being likely to be a unique opportunity to break the top four, my decision is based on the fact that going on a cup run may prove risky to our league position, and so I would rather grab a top four place this season. Anyway, it’s not really an arguing point – it’s my decision on what choice I would take, and my personal reasoning.

It actually emphasised my point: most teams don't win a trophy; most don't win one often. We have only ever won one major trophy.

If this is a "unique opportunity to break the top 4" then I'll definitely take the cup. Now if it's an opportunity to get top 4 and progress to a club that gets top 4 every year, that's a different story.

(Before you bite, my second point is taking the piss )

It is interesting however that in your final paragraph, you mention that you lament coming second as winning is better... I wonder how you'd feel in 20 years time, if we came 4th this year and didn't do it again or win a cup? I bet you'd lament not winning that cup you were offered As you said though it is just a choice, but a good debate (not argument) all the same .

 

[letissier86]

But that is not the topic is it? The question is what would you rather happen. Of course all of us want to do well in both that is pretty obvious.

I get that - aside the OP's question, I'm simply agreeing with Fran that Koeman will go out to win both whilst avoiding compromise in either by resting/rotating etc more than other managers might.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

It's a question Chilco. It's not going on about how if we win tonight we are more likely to win the weekend. This is would you rather win a cup or get into the CL.

I know. I'm just saying it's an impossible choice, simply because achieving one doesn't necessarily mean you won't do well in the other, or vice versa. The way I see it, is that we are more likely to do well in both. That is us, Southampton FC, in the 2014-15 season, not based on any historical precedence, right here, right now.

 

[fatletiss]

True but I think a possible season of CL football is a bigger lure and anchorage for existing players.

A 100k wage would be just as luring

 

[Beef]

I know. I'm just saying it's an impossible choice, simply because achieving one doesn't necessarily mean you won't do well in the other, or vice versa. The way I see it, is that we are more likely to do well in both. That is us, Southampton FC, in the 2014-15 season, not based on any historical precedence, right here, right now.

Ok put it this way if you did a pact with the devil (no not Pompey) and he said you can either win the FA cup or finish in 4th. What would you choose?

 

[fatletiss]

Ok put it this way if you did a pact with the devil (no not Pompey) and he said you can either win the FA cup or finish in 4th. What would you choose?

Well if we are doing deals with the devil, I'd like to throw Spuds in for relegation

 

[letissier86]

A 100k wage would be just as luring

Indeed and some clubs can offer both...

 

[tomw24]

I actually think both are very realistic. Even with a run in the FA Cup, we still would have fewer games than our rivals due to their European commitments. Admittedly we have a smaller squad but that only comes into play if we get injuries to key players. Well, when I say key I mean Morgan, Clyne, Pelle or Fonte.

 

[Clem Fandango]

Oh the prestigious FA Cup. Recently won by footballing royalty such as Wigan and Portsmouth...

I think auto qualification to the CL takes priority. Lets just not throw the FA Cup like we did last season.

 

[SamKimish]

Winning the FA Cup would be an incredible (theoretical) achievment.

Finishing in the top 4 this season would provide us with the platform for continual, sustained success and therefore more achievements in the long run.

Top 4 > FA Cup

 

[Libby]

Disagree with the first part. Finishing top 4, whatever happens in the qualifiers would be achieving a hell of a lot.

Yeah it would be a great achievement, don't get me wrong. The point I'm trying to make is if we do finish in the top 4 this year, we're still unlikely to replicate it next year, due to there being 6 teams with bigger budgets than us, and us likely to lose players at points. So in 10 years time, would you rather remember that year we finished 4th, or the year we won the FA Cup at Wembley?

 

[SamKimish]

Yeah it would be a great achievement, don't get me wrong. The point I'm trying to make is if we do finish in the top 4 this year, we're still unlikely to replicate it next year, due to there being 6 teams with bigger budgets than us, and us likely to lose players at points. So in 10 years time, would you rather remember that year we finished 4th, or the year we won the FA Cup at Wembley?

The whole point that I am trying to make however is that qualifying for the Champions League would help us to retain those players that we are so used to losing, thus building for the future.

Will Morgan stay if we finish 7th and win the FA Cup? No.

Will Morgan stay if we lose to Ipswich tonight but finish 4th and qualify for the Champions League? Yes.

That for me is key, we are a much more attractive proposition with European football and that will help attract the standard of players that would help us compete against the 'big boys' over a sustained period of time.

 

[Libby]

Winning the FA Cup would be an incredible (theoretical) achievment.

Finishing in the top 4 this season would provide us with the platform for continual, sustained success and therefore more achievements in the long run.

Top 4 > FA Cup

On this point that you and others have made, how many people genuinely think that we can finish in the top 4 year-on-year, cos I certainly don't. We're close this year as we're having a great season and other sides are poor. We're 9 points better off than after 21 games last year and in 3rd. Yet 39 points after 21 games last season would of only had us 7th. So genuine question to people, out of those 6, which 3 are we going to be able to finish above reguarly, and how will we do that?

Also it's a bit simplistic to say that if we finished 4th players won't leave, as we still won't be able to pay the top wages...and we wouldn't even know if we had the CL income until mid August.

 

[Libby]

Sorry Sam hadn't seen your next post.

"That for me is key, we are a much more attractive proposition with European football and that will help attract the standard of players that would help us compete against the 'big boys' over a sustained period of time."

The problem with that is, once you're in the CL, players will want CL wages, or they'll want to go to teams who might win it? Neither of which we can offer.

 

[SamKimish]

On this point that you and others have made, how many people genuinely think that we can finish in the top 4 year-on-year, cos I certainly don't. We're close this year as we're having a great season and other sides are poor. We're 9 points better off than after 21 games last year and in 3rd. Yet 39 points after 21 games last season would of only had us 7th. So genuine question to people, out of those 6, which 3 are we going to be able to finish above reguarly, and how will we do that?

Also it's a bit simplistic to say that if we finished 4th players won't leave, as we still won't be able to pay the top wages...and we wouldn't even know if we had the CL income until mid August.

FFP is not even close to becoming an issue for the club thanks in large part to the big money transfers of "all our star players" this Summer but also thanks to the shrewd business-based decisions made by the club.

Remember that we have the lowest wage bill per point earned in the Premier League this season, something that both Cortese and Kreuger should be celebrated for.

European qualification guarantees a substantial increase in club revenue that an FA Cup just doesn't.

 

[Libby]

No FFP isn't an issue at the moment, but it stops us from taking the next step to compete with the big clubs in terms of wages, squad size etc. As if we're honest it's not exactly a small gap is it? Remember we've recently had a lower commercial income than the likes of Wolves & Fulham.

"European qualification guarantees a substantial increase in club revenue that an FA Cup just doesn't."

Well no, the Champions League does IF you make the group stages season-after-season.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

Yeah it would be a great achievement, don't get me wrong. The point I'm trying to make is if we do finish in the top 4 this year, we're still unlikely to replicate it next year, due to there being 6 teams with bigger budgets than us, and us likely to lose players at points. So in 10 years time, would you rather remember that year we finished 4th, or the year we won the FA Cup at Wembley?

This is the head v heart thing. My heart likes winning not coming 4. Remember the JPT, did we care it was only the JPT, No.
My head knows that 4th MIGHT be more significant to us as a club.

Re: the ANY club CAN win the FA Cup, I thought I'd check the records and it hasn't been that way since the Prem was formed. No 1st Div winners and only Wigan, Everton and the South Coast's sleeping giants register outside the usual suspects. In fact the top 3 has contained more 'smaller' teams than that in the same period Newcastle, Everton, Villa, Norwich, Leeds, Blackburn.

Wikipedia:
In the history of the FA Cup, only eight teams who were playing outside the top level of English football have gone on to win the competition, the most recent being West Ham United, who beat Arsenal in 1980. With the exception of Tottenham in 1901, these clubs were all playing in the old Second Division. No other Third Division or lower side has won the trophy or even reached the final since the Football League was founded.

 

[Tintin]

top 4 for me

 

[SamKimish]

No FFP isn't an issue at the moment, but it stops us from taking the next step to compete with the big clubs in terms of wages, squad size etc. As if we're honest it's not exactly a small gap is it? Remember we've recently had a lower commercial income than the likes of Wolves & Fulham.

"European qualification guarantees a substantial increase in club revenue that an FA Cup just doesn't."

Well no, the Champions League does IF you make the group stages season-after-season.

Interesting reading from www.financialfariplay.co.uk on the matter

There is, however, the interesting though unlikely potential of a change in the footballing order. Although it is an outside bet, if a club like Southampton were to secure a CL slot for 2015/16, they might be able to use their extra £40m to embed themselves as a CL regular. With the new spending constraint rules in place in the Premier League and UEFA's FFP rules, even historically wealthy clubs and those with a wealthy benefactor are going to find it difficult to displace an entrenched Champions League club. Any club not on the 4-seater Champions League bus in 2015/16 will seriously struggle to catch up.

 

[Beef]

No FFP isn't an issue at the moment, but it stops us from taking the next step to compete with the big clubs in terms of wages, squad size etc. As if we're honest it's not exactly a small gap is it? Remember we've recently had a lower commercial income than the likes of Wolves & Fulham.

"European qualification guarantees a substantial increase in club revenue that an FA Cup just doesn't."

Well no, the Champions League does IF you make the group stages season-after-season.

I wonder why our commercial income was so bad......