Transfer Rumours To sack or not to sack?

[PowerSpurs]

100% correct.

The idea that Ange 'just needed the proper backing' fails to acknowledge that, that's exactly what BMJ, Harry, Poch, Mourinho and Conte needed...and didn't get. Under Levy and ENIC, no manager/coachhas got the necessary backing...and none is going to, either.

Let Paratici and Lange find us young talent and diamonds in the rough and maybe...just maybe...with the right coaching and a bit of patience...

The alternative is more high fee, with low wages, mediocre talents, delivering failure that leads to high coaching turnover.

Of course, ENIC could always take their money and set us free...

To do better any new owner has to be able to afford £3b to buy ENIC out, another £1b to pay off the stadium loans to prevent the covenants limiting spending and another £200m or so per season to inject into squad improvement. The number of investors able to do that is quite limited. The loan pay off is particularly interesting because the only investors who would think it sensible to use cash to pay off loans at such low interest rates are those who have major other constraints on what they can invest in. There may be genuine Spurs fans with £5b of cashable assets who are prepared to take a hit to their investment returns in order to unlock the club's full potential I suppose.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

I know I sound like a broken record but look at Burkinshaw's first 4 seasons.
We won a major European trophy ... something we ain't done since 1984.
41 years of no European trophy and 17 yrs of no trophy and he's rewarded with the sack.
Maybe he wouldn't have pushed on but he and we deserved the opportunity to see

I always respect your view. On this rare occasion, I disagree with you.

Keithy inherited a complete mess. The season that we went down, we had 2 players who turned up regularly- Stevie P and Big Pat, the second of whom was immediately and criminally let go.

Keithy put together a team to get us promoted, made out of odds and ends. Stevie P at centre half, Colin Lee, Ian Moores and Gerry Armstrong up front. The best players, other than Stevie and Glenn Hoddle, were ****ed by the next season - Jimmy Holmes, Peter Taylor and John Duncan. By the time we were successful, only Stevie and Glenn were left.

By contrast, Ange has quite the array of talent. In '77 we fully deserved to get relegated. The team was really poor. Keithy stayed because that wasn't his fault. This season, we had a team that should have finished mid-table, at worst. That we didn't, wasn't a squad problem, it was a coaching one.

Poor tactics, poor squad rotation, over playing players, playing them when they were injured/recovering from injury...that's why we ended up 17th...and there was no reason to expect that it wouldn't be the same story next season.

Keeping him on for another season would be placing ungrounded hope over realistic expectation. He had to go...now, whether the next chapter is any more coherent and progressive...?

**** alone knows...

 

[BinghamSpur]

I'm afraid it looks like we are locked into this perpetual loop for the foreseeable future then and aside from perhaps another oil state coming in I cannot see the situation changing..

Anyway, now that the dust has settled I think you can see he was never going to be here next season. there were some magnificent highs (few in number to be fair) but a colossal amount of s**** games I had to endure along the way. Also what grates a bit is that I sort of get concentrating on "one" competition. But when I cough up a very large part of modest income to travel and watch them was I ever really that entertained? Now was it all worth it for that final? Oh 100% it was, but realistically it was never going to happen again in 25/26. You almost feel that caught poor old Daniel on the hop a bit, The Fates very sick sense of humour.

My fear now is there will be no new coach appointment until the end of the month, the window will pass us by and the complete mess will continue on and on and on.....

Oh and an opening fixture away at Anfield...

 

[The RDBD]

To do better any new owner has to be able to afford £3b to buy ENIC out, another £1b to pay off the stadium loans to prevent the covenants limiting spending and another £200m or so per season to inject into squad improvement. The number of investors able to do that is quite limited. The loan pay off is particularly interesting because the only investors who would think it sensible to use cash to pay off loans at such low interest rates are those who have major other constraints on what they can invest in.

No individual is going to pay that money because
they see a potential ROI on football alone.

So it will have to be a vanity trinket for someone,
or nation-owned (for less than altruistic reasons) .


"There may be genuine Spurs fans with £5b of cashable assets who are prepared to take a hit
to their investment returns in order to unlock the club's full potential I suppose."

1. 25% cash release of pension funds for starters.
2. Possibility of "steady state" pension annuity investment into the club ??


I doubt it would have to be a full buyout either.
Genuine supporters taking a significant % in the club
could stir Levy into taking particular paths.

 

[The RDBD]

Forgive me for being cynical but if I was a player I also wouldn't mind playing for a manger under whom there would be zero consequences or repercussions for me if I turned out dozens of ****e performances across a season, as long as I performed well in a handful of cup games at the end of the season.

You could be like that today even without said performances.
If player pay was seriously performance-based,
things on-pitch would drastically change for the better.

 

[remembercolinlee]

I always respect your view. On this rare occasion, I disagree with you.

Keithy inherited a complete mess. The season that we went down, we had 2 players who turned up regularly- Stevie P and Big Pat, the second of whom was immediately and criminally let go.

Keithy put together a team to get us promoted, made out of odds and ends. Stevie P at centre half, Colin Lee, Ian Moores and Gerry Armstrong up front. The best players, other than Stevie and Glenn Hoddle, were ****ed by the next season - Jimmy Holmes, Peter Taylor and John Duncan. By the time we were successful, only Stevie and Glenn were left.

By contrast, Ange has quite the array of talent. In '77 we fully deserved to get relegated. The team was really poor. Keithy stayed because that wasn't his fault. This season, we had a team that should have finished mid-table, at worst. That we didn't, wasn't a squad problem, it was a coaching one.

Poor tactics, poor squad rotation, over playing players, playing them when they were injured/recovering from injury...that's why we ended up 17th...and there was no reason to expect that it wouldn't be the same story next season.

Keeping him on for another season would be placing ungrounded hope over realistic expectation. He had to go...now, whether the next chapter is any more coherent and progressive...?

**** alone knows...

I do get why people disagree with my take ... some of the football has been unwatchable bad this season...just think we needed to stick rather than twist ourselves in to knots ...again!

 

[The RDBD]

I do get why people disagree with my take ... some of the football has been unwatchable bad this season...just think we needed to stick rather than twist ourselves in to knots ...again!

The fatal flaw in your argument is this :

If you believe that Ange is a Keithy in the making,
on league performances only why should he
be given the leniency to continue when it was
denied to many of his predecessors ??

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

To do better any new owner has to be able to afford £3b to buy ENIC out, another £1b to pay off the stadium loans to prevent the covenants limiting spending and another £200m or so per season to inject into squad improvement. The number of investors able to do that is quite limited. The loan pay off is particularly interesting because the only investors who would think it sensible to use cash to pay off loans at such low interest rates are those who have major other constraints on what they can invest in. There may be genuine Spurs fans with £5b of cashable assets who are prepared to take a hit to their investment returns in order to unlock the club's full potential I suppose.

Plenty of individuals, or groups thereof, can raise the kind of money that would buy the club...but a bit like our quest for a
stadium sponsorship, nobody sees it as good VFM. That's down to the owners, not the lack of a market.

Given what the club has going for it, the failure to land the acknowledged, required outside investment is damning of the way that the club is viewed by people outside the club boardroom and ENIC.

This internal, overinflated view of the club is severely at odds with the regular chaos exhibited within. How many clubs win a major trophy, yet need to sack their coach, Chief Footballing Officer; let go a senior board member, appoint a new CEO and DoF?

It would be comical if it was happening down the road. Daniel needs bringing to heel and given some proper direction and limitations, because having been left to his own devices, the club's become a hot mess in footballing terms.

One swallow doesn't make a summer...and one trophy in 17 years doesn't represent a decent return. Finishing 17th should see Daniel clearing his desk. If he wasn't major shareholder, he'd have gone years ago and certainly with Ange on Friday.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

Plenty of individuals, or groups thereof, can raise the kind of money that would buy the club...but a bit like our quest for a
stadium sponsorship, nobody sees it as good VFM. That's down to the owners, not the lack of a market.

Given what the club has going for it, the failure to land the acknowledged, required outside investment is damning of the way that the club is viewed by people outside the club boardroom and ENIC.

This internal, overinflated view of the club is severely at odds with the regular chaos exhibited within. How many clubs win a major trophy, yet need to sack their coach, Chief Footballing Officer; let go a senior board member, appoint a new CEO and DoF?

It would be comical if it was happening down the road. Daniel needs bringing to heel and given some proper direction and limitations, because having been left to his own devices, the club's become a hot mess in footballing terms.

One swallow doesn't make a summer...and one trophy in 17 years doesn't represent a decent return. Finishing 17th should see Daniel clearing his desk. If he wasn't major shareholder, he'd have gone years ago and certainly with Ange on Friday.

It’s very rare that the 17th place team wins a trophy - and if they did, they would probably have done so against all expectations and overperformed. Burnley, for example. So the manager’s job would have never been under threat.
Spurs’ situation is an anomaly. A massively under performing team wins a trophy. Although the trophy was not in an elite competition and the opposition were, by and large, of a very moderate standard where Spurs would be one of the favourites from the outset, irrespective of PL form.
So although Ange can rightly claim to be an exceptional manager for Spurs in winning something, the team has still massively underperformed.
I’d have made the same observation had Utd won the final, because the same evaluation would be appropriate. Success in spite of the manager’s failings.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

It’s very rare that the 17th place team wins a trophy - and if they did, they would probably have done so against all expectations and overperformed. Burnley, for example. So the manager’s job would have never been under threat.
Spurs’ situation is an anomaly. A massively under performing team wins a trophy. Although the trophy was not in an elite competition and the opposition were, by and large, of a very moderate standard where Spurs would be one of the favourites from the outset, irrespective of PL form.
So although Ange can rightly claim to be an exceptional manager for Spurs in winning something, the team has still massively underperformed.
I’d have made the same observation had Utd won the final, because the same evaluation would be appropriate. Success in spite of the manager’s failings.

There's also the blunt version of that: you only need to win around a dozen matches to win a cup

You (usually) need to win 30 matches to win the league

 

[Spurlock]

Top managers, great managers have sat in the hot seat in the last 10 years

They have all said the same kind of thing about THFC

they know more than you and me about what happens behind closed doors

what have they said and about who?

Sometimes I think we get what we deserve as a fanbase

 

[KingHotspur]

There's also the blunt version of that: you only need to win around a dozen matches to win a cup

You (usually) need to win 30 matches to win the league

Ange himself said the same thing when he first joined. The real mark of progress is league position.

The table never lies. Cups are difficult because of the draw and it can work in your favour or against you. The league shows the true position of a team.

Ideally we would have both (top 4/6 and a cup)

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Ange himself said the same thing when he first joined. The real mark of progress is league position.

The table never lies. Cups are difficult because of the draw and it can work in your favour or against you. The league shows the true position of a team.

Ideally we would have both (top 4/6 and a cup)

With the extenuating circumstances of the injuries, if Ange had us finishing between 8th-10th he likely would have kept his job, possibly even if he finished as low as 12th if there were signs of players like Bergvall progressing ahead of schedule

For comparison, Ramos had us finish 11thafter winning a trophy - but our form post-trophy win carried into the following season, which frankly makes me wonder if Levy had Commoli under the microscope that summer considering the two of them were out the door eight games in

 

[remembercolinlee]

The fatal flaw in your argument is this :

If you believe that Ange is a Keithy in the making,
on league performances only why should he
be given the leniency to continue when it was
denied to many of his predecessors ??

Because Burkinshaw was so poor in the league until 1981/82...his 5th season in the top division.

 

[KingHotspur]

Top managers, great managers have sat in the hot seat in the last 10 years

They have all said the same kind of thing about THFC

they know more than you and me about what happens behind closed doors

what have they said and about who?

Sometimes I think we get what we deserve as a fanbase

Fanbase definitely needs to keep the heat on the owners especially regarding investment.

If Spurs sack Ange and his replacement starts poorly then the disconnect between fans and them will get even bigger.

 

[Spurlock]

When you say ‘to compete on multiple fronts’

do you mean to be in it to win it or to be nearly men on multiple fronts?

need to understand what Levy wants

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

When you say ‘to compete on multiple fronts’

do you mean to be in it to win it or to be nearly men on multiple fronts?

need to understand what Levy wants

Being able to compete in one competition without form cratering in all others

Though TBH, we really need to accept we can't compete in all four anyway, we'd need oil money to do that effectively

 

[The RDBD]

Because Burkinshaw was so poor in the league until 1981/82...his 5th season in the top division.

AVB finished with 72 pts in 2012-13.
The highest pts total by Spurs in the PL at that time.

Before christmas the next season he was gone,
after 16 games, only 8 pts behind top place.

By contrast, Ange was 13 pts behind at the same milestone this season.

If consistency is being applied to your thesis, AVB should have stayed.

 

[The RDBD]

When you say ‘to compete on multiple fronts’

do you mean to be in it to win it or to be nearly men on multiple fronts?

I'll take continuous 2009/10 or 2016-17 or 2018-19,
over any season since the latter and all but a few of
the seasons from 1993 up to the former.

 

[SpursDisciple]

AVB finished with 72 pts in 2012-13.
The highest pts total by Spurs in the PL at that time.

Before christmas the next season he was gone,
after 16 games, only 8 pts behind top place.

By contrast, Ange was 13 pts behind at the same milestone this season.

If consistency is being applied to your thesis, AVB should have stayed.

To be fair all he had to do was tell the players to pass to Bale