Off Topic Time for action

[rowley]

How can you be confident of that? Genuine question.

Well he can be confident because if it had been Labour government, it would have been Corbyn at it's head. He is a lifelong, unapologetic supporter and cheerleader for Russia now, and the Soviet Union back then.

If it had been Starmer, we know he opposed the help given to Ukraine from 2014 onwards , or certainly that he refused to endorse it. The Labour Party broadly opposed it and Corbyn was openly hostile. There is still a large rump of Labour which has a rosy view of Russia , and for some even the horrors of Stalin can be explained away.

It would have been very handy indeed for Putin if Labour had been in power, more through their inertia than anything else.

This lot in power now have got plenty wrong, but they have got this right.

 

[DELETED ACCOUNT 1234]

Well he can be confident because if it had been Labour government, it would have been Corbyn at it's head. He is a lifelong, unapologetic supporter and cheerleader for Russia nowt.

I'm not aware of this, I'd like to see the evidence.

 

[Mackem-Tiz]

I'm not aware of this, I'd like to see the evidence.

It's a well known fact. If it needs to be proven to you it tells me you are anti Conservative no matter what.

 

[DELETED ACCOUNT 1234]

It's a well known fact. If it needs to be proven to you it tells me you are anti Conservative no matter what.

If it's a well known fact then there'll be plenty of evidence, I'm just asking to see some.

Edit: Or better still, maybe you can explain how this is unapologetic support for Russia today:

You must log in or register to see media

 

[Mackem-Tiz]

If I could be arsed or had the need/want to I could easily scroll through the past years. Simply can't be bothered. HNY

 

[rowley]

I'm not aware of this, I'd like to see the evidence.

Fair enough, but it's no secret and he's never tried to hide it. He even declared his considerable earnings from Russia Today in the members interests register. But it's more his public utterances which show his colours. He has never criticised Russia in the past, and even now any reservations are couched in suggestions that the war isn't all their doing.

 

[rowley]

If it's a well known fact then there'll be plenty of evidence, I'm just asking to see some.

Edit: Or better still, maybe you can explain how this is unapologetic support for Russia today:

You must log in or register to see media

Very, very late to the party though. Look at his history. He sided with Russia over the Salisbury poisonings and has always been unable to see anything other than good coming from them.

 

[Nig]

Eh? You must be joking!

They have certainly splattered money about all over, Tory MPs and Labour MPs included.

But it should be said that Johnson was the first to back Ukraine properly. The Tory government also, alone in the world at the time, backed Ukraine after Crimea with arms, training and intelligence. This war would have been over in a fortnight without all that.

And let us never forget that Corbyn, to this day has never uttered a single public word of criticism of Russia, in this or any other matter in his life. Not even of Stalin when asked. There are many Labour MPs of the same mindset who can never bring themselves to criticise either Russia now, or the USSR back then. It's all that red flag rubbish.

And Starmer, for all his easy ride in the press is only very, very late to the argument against Russia. He fought night and day, Internet and press, TV and radio to get Corbyn elected PM, knowing full well where his real sympathies lay.

Plenty of ****e can be thrown at this government , but its conduct in this matter is not one of them.

And your joking right ?

Bozo Boris stalled the war on purpose.
Him and his cronies are raking it in in arms deals

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...g-out-the-ukraine-war?leadSource=uverify wall

Same as Bellend Biden and the billions of US arms.

War is one of the most profitable business , pandemics do well too


The failed Afghanistan war

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar...etary-costs-date-us-war-afghanistan-2001-2022

The Blairliar and Bullshìt Bush Iraq war.
According to the Ministry of Defence, the total cost of UK military operations in Iraq from 2003 to 2009 was £8.4bn. Official calculations stated that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined cost £20.3 billion (up to but not beyond June 2010).


All nice little earners
They don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts FFS.
It's all profits.

 

[clockstander]

Eh? You must be joking!

They have certainly splattered money about all over, Tory MPs and Labour MPs included.

But it should be said that Johnson was the first to back Ukraine properly. The Tory government also, alone in the world at the time, backed Ukraine after Crimea with arms, training and intelligence. This war would have been over in a fortnight without all that.

And let us never forget that Corbyn, to this day has never uttered a single public word of criticism of Russia, in this or any other matter in his life. Not even of Stalin when asked. There are many Labour MPs of the same mindset who can never bring themselves to criticise either Russia now, or the USSR back then. It's all that red flag rubbish.

And Starmer, for all his easy ride in the press is only very, very late to the argument against Russia. He fought night and day, Internet and press, TV and radio to get Corbyn elected PM, knowing full well where his real sympathies lay.

Plenty of ****e can be thrown at this government , but its conduct in this matter is not one of them.

Maybe If we had had a Labour government for the duration spanning the origins of this conflict it might never have occurred in the first place. This conflict goes back to the Thatcher/Reagan alliance , nothing to do with Corbyn.

 

[DELETED ACCOUNT 1234]

Very, very late to the party though. Look at his history. He sided with Russia over the Salisbury poisonings and has always been unable to see anything other than good coming from them.

The bit in bold I've already proven is untrue with the previous comments from him:

"Russia's shocking invasion of Ukraine is causing fear, misery and death".

"In 2008, I asserted that Putin was rigging elections."

"In 2010, I called for a freeze of his assets."

"In 2016, I asserted that Putin was guilty of war crimes in Syria."

He sided with Russia over the Salisbury poisonings.

As for this point, again, it's not true.

The below comments of not unequivocally condemning the Russian state immediately was twisted as "Corbyn supports Russia" which isn't accurate:

“What I would say is, if we are going to make a very, very clear assertion like that we have got to have the absolute evidence to do it. Because listen – we believe in rules-based diplomacy. We believe in rules-based international relationships. Therefore, you have got to have incontrovertible evidence otherwise you reduce your ability to criticise other people… Assertions and probability are not the same as certainty. I think it is very clear that the nerve agent itself is very similar to those made in Russia, Novichok is what we call it. Obviously there has to be some challenge to Russia on this and that is what is going on. And I would want to challenge the Russians on the production of this as indeed I would any other countries producing something that is wholly and totally illegal.”

He also said the below:

"Either this was a crime authored by the Russian state; or that state has allowed these deadly toxins to slip out of the control it has an obligation to exercise. If the latter, a connection to Russian mafia-like groups that have been allowed to gain a toehold in Britain cannot be excluded. He added: "The Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence, and our response must be both decisive and proportionate."

Looking at your previous point that Corbyn has earnings from appearances on Russia today - this is not nearly as damning as a Conservative government taking over £800k in political donations and that Boris Johsnon gave a peership to the son of an ex KGB officer and one of Putin's closest friends. Johnson has such a close relationship to Lebedev that he's met his father as well on a number of occasions and without aids present.

 

[Blond Bombshell]

The bit in bold I've already proven is untrue with the previous comments from him:

"Russia's shocking invasion of Ukraine is causing fear, misery and death".

"In 2008, I asserted that Putin was rigging elections."

"In 2010, I called for a freeze of his assets."

"In 2016, I asserted that Putin was guilty of war crimes in Syria."



As for this point, again, it's not true.

The below comments of not unequivocally condemning the Russian state immediately was twisted as "Corbyn supports Russia" which isn't accurate:

“What I would say is, if we are going to make a very, very clear assertion like that we have got to have the absolute evidence to do it. Because listen – we believe in rules-based diplomacy. We believe in rules-based international relationships. Therefore, you have got to have incontrovertible evidence otherwise you reduce your ability to criticise other people… Assertions and probability are not the same as certainty. I think it is very clear that the nerve agent itself is very similar to those made in Russia, Novichok is what we call it. Obviously there has to be some challenge to Russia on this and that is what is going on. And I would want to challenge the Russians on the production of this as indeed I would any other countries producing something that is wholly and totally illegal.”

He also said the below:

"Either this was a crime authored by the Russian state; or that state has allowed these deadly toxins to slip out of the control it has an obligation to exercise. If the latter, a connection to Russian mafia-like groups that have been allowed to gain a toehold in Britain cannot be excluded. He added: "The Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence, and our response must be both decisive and proportionate."

Looking at your previous point that Corbyn has earnings from appearances on Russia today - this is not nearly as damning as a Conservative government taking over £800k in political donations and that Boris Johsnon gave a peership to the son of an ex KGB officer and one of Putin's closest friends. Johnson has such a close relationship to Lebedev that he's met his father as well on a number of occasions and without aids present.

As I've said @rowley lad, as eloquently detailed above by Flash, IMO the Russians have bought the tories - so we are going to have to wait until start of 2024 before any action.

 

[Mackem-Tiz]

I think we should simply all agree to disagree.
No one will change my mind and vice versa.
We do all have one thing in common tho...SAFC

 

[DELETED ACCOUNT 1234]

I think we should simply all agree to disagree.
No one will change my mind and vice versa.
We do all have one thing in common tho...SAFC

You accused me of bias as it's a "well known fact" that doesn't need proven.

Now I've provided you with actual facts and the response is "No-one will change my mind".

I think it's clear which of us is biased.

 

[Mackem-Tiz]

No one will ever convince me that JC or the Labour party aren't Russian sympathisers.
Keir Starmer...what exactly would he do different? You vote labour I don't. It's that simple.

 

[rowley]

The bit in bold I've already proven is untrue with the previous comments from him:

"Russia's shocking invasion of Ukraine is causing fear, misery and death".

"In 2008, I asserted that Putin was rigging elections."

"In 2010, I called for a freeze of his assets."

"In 2016, I asserted that Putin was guilty of war crimes in Syria."



As for this point, again, it's not true.

The below comments of not unequivocally condemning the Russian state immediately was twisted as "Corbyn supports Russia" which isn't accurate:

“What I would say is, if we are going to make a very, very clear assertion like that we have got to have the absolute evidence to do it. Because listen – we believe in rules-based diplomacy. We believe in rules-based international relationships. Therefore, you have got to have incontrovertible evidence otherwise you reduce your ability to criticise other people… Assertions and probability are not the same as certainty. I think it is very clear that the nerve agent itself is very similar to those made in Russia, Novichok is what we call it. Obviously there has to be some challenge to Russia on this and that is what is going on. And I would want to challenge the Russians on the production of this as indeed I would any other countries producing something that is wholly and totally illegal.”

He also said the below:

"Either this was a crime authored by the Russian state; or that state has allowed these deadly toxins to slip out of the control it has an obligation to exercise. If the latter, a connection to Russian mafia-like groups that have been allowed to gain a toehold in Britain cannot be excluded. He added: "The Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence, and our response must be both decisive and proportionate."

Looking at your previous point that Corbyn has earnings from appearances on Russia today - this is not nearly as damning as a Conservative government taking over £800k in political donations and that Boris Johsnon gave a peership to the son of an ex KGB officer and one of Putin's closest friends. Johnson has such a close relationship to Lebedev that he's met his father as well on a number of occasions and without aids present.

Look farther back. Look at his history. He says things when he's squeezed into saying them. All old ground.

The original point was that he would not have supported Ukraine if he'd been PM. He wouldn't have.

 

[rowley]

As I've said @rowley lad, as eloquently detailed above by Flash, IMO the Russians have bought the tories - so we are going to have to wait until start of 2024 before any action.

Well if they have "bought the Tories" why are these people they have bought causing so much trouble for them? Why are they still putting money and arms up against them, training soldiers and others to fight against them, and why did they sieze by far the most assets of any country in the world at the war's outbreak?

" Wait for action"? What action?

 

[young2077]

I can't believe the combined expertise of Us Uk Germany military are not capable of stopping this without any red buttons being deployed.

Erm I don't think the worry is them pressing a red button? Are you suggesting they can prevent Putin from pushing one?

 

[Nig]

Look farther back. Look at his history. He says things when he's squeezed into saying them. All old ground.

The original point was that he would not have supported Ukraine if he'd been PM. He wouldn't have.

Try looking at the big picture instead of spouting shìt

 

[FellTop]

As I've said @rowley lad, as eloquently detailed above by Flash, IMO the Russians have bought the tories - so we are going to have to wait until start of 2024 before any action.

You really have lost me here mate. Are you saying we have taken no action against Russia or in support of Ukraine under the current conservative government. Or are you saying we need to wait for the Labour party to take power before we put our military on the ground in Ukraine be at war with Russia?

 

[Sunderpitt]

You really have lost me here mate. Are you saying we have taken no action against Russia or in support of Ukraine under the current conservative government. Or are you saying we need to wait for the Labour party to take power before we put our military on the ground in Ukraine be at war with Russia?

My current reading of the Labour position is that it fully supports the Tories actions on Ukraine If they win the GE they would continue along the same lines.

I suppose Corbyn is like Bonko/Truss a stick to beat the other side up with? If you are losing an argument?