The way forward for THFC ??

[humanbeingincroydon]

You're just not reading my posts accurately. If I haven't written them clearly, the fault is mine.

Dier does possess an abundance of leadership skills. The 'zilch' refers to the latter: actual footballing ability. Which means the bottom line is making him a leader so that he (justifiably) expects regular game time is to the detriment of the team. And when he does play, it's well and good that he can organise a corner, but he clearly doesn't inspire confidence in anyone around him and clearly doesn't inspire others to raise their standards. `

SIssoko is another excellent example of this paradox and I'm glad you've mentioned him. Cannot fault the bloke for effort, commitment and leadership. But why do we overlook how atrocious he is as a footballer because of this? For all his qualities, it was to the detriment of the team that he started playing regularly and was a massive downgrade on both Dembele and Wanyama - neither of whom possessed much in leadership skills at all, they were simply superior footballers in every aspect.

We have to break this absurd cycle of thinking that leadership, commitment, loyalty and effort are all synonyms of ability. Ability is a synonym of ability.

Hojbjerg isn't good enough to be made captain. Skipp isn't (yet) good enough to join an influential committee. It's very, very simple.

The issue is we have lacked leadership on the pitch since the days of King and Dawson - yet when we have players who offer either elements of leadership on the pitch, or are leading figures off the pitch, we're told they're not good enough - often too early

In the case of both Sissoko and Hojbjerg their on-pitch efforts were the point because managers always want somebody who gives 100% every game, which ironically was undone by the poor leadership in the dugout at various times, most obviously how we've spent the past three years flogging Hojbjerg to death so his abilities are blunted due to his legs going. And when somebody gives 100% for the cause they get recognised by their teammates as much as the coaches, and with Skippy not only giving 100% in matches but also not being afraid to give the senior players both barrels at halftime that absolutely means he should be considered for a spot in the player's committee, after all the fact he's willing to dish out deserved bollockings to his club captain and vice-captain is a much better quality than somebody who shies away when matches are going poorly

 

[Dier Hard]

Realistically you do need to be a top player at a club to hold the title of being influential too. Very rarely are average/ mediocre players considered good leaders, Henderson is probably a rare example of this at Pool.

The fact of our supposed five-man committee, only two are (or have been) amongst the upper tier of players at the club is pretty damning. I like Ben Davies but he's always been a top squad player more so than a top player, Dier had a good few years spell but has largely been disastrous in the last four or so, Hojbjerg does possess great mental strengths and would probably be the closest thing to a Henderson but from a quality perspective you'd put him in the mid-range category at the club, not as bad as the Sessegnon's, Lo Celso's and Lucas' but not as good as the Kane's, Son's and Bentancur's. Me personally, if I were a player at the club being barked orders by players who are nowhere near as good as me or known for regular errors, I'd probably find it counter-productive, yet if Robbie Keane or Ledley King for instance are telling me to run back and make a challenge or to give more umph to something then you best believe I'm not arguing with them.

As for Skippy, it probably is too early for someone like him to be considered influential or part of a player committee, both Jose and Conte have said he's future Spurs (and England) captain material but that's just it, future. He's gotta cement his spot in the XI first and as has been said, in a two-man midfield when all are fit, you're picking Bentancur and Bissouma. In a three-man midfield, potentially a different story as he'd be the best fit as the anchor but until that happens I don't think we should be looking at a young squad player as part of the leadership team of players at the club - though the fact we lack leaders, it's probably why Skipp is getting the supposed promotion.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

The issue is we have lacked leadership on the pitch since the days of King and Dawson - yet when we have players who offer either elements of leadership on the pitch, or are leading figures off the pitch, we're told they're not good enough - often too early

In the case of both Sissoko and Hojbjerg their on-pitch efforts were the point because managers always want somebody who gives 100% every game, which ironically was undone by the poor leadership in the dugout at various times, most obviously how we've spent the past three years flogging Hojbjerg to death so his abilities are blunted due to his legs going. And when somebody gives 100% for the cause they get recognised by their teammates as much as the coaches, and with Skippy not only giving 100% in matches but also not being afraid to give the senior players both barrels at halftime that absolutely means he should be considered for a spot in the player's committee, after all the fact he's willing to dish out deserved bollockings to his club captain and vice-captain is a much better quality than somebody who shies away when matches are going poorly

You only need players giving 100% every game if you're compensating for a general lack of quality. And the more quality you lack, the more that slack needs to be carried by sheer blunt effort. Which is why players like Sissoko, Winks, Hojbjerg and Skipp have risen to prominence over recent seasons.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Realistically you do need to be a top player at a club to hold the title of being influential too. Very rarely are average/ mediocre players considered good leaders, Henderson is probably a rare example of this at Pool.

The fact of our supposed five-man committee, only two are (or have been) amongst the upper tier of players at the club is pretty damning. I like Ben Davies but he's always been a top squad player more so than a top player, Dier had a good few years spell but has largely been disastrous in the last four or so, Hojbjerg does possess great mental strengths and would probably be the closest thing to a Henderson but from a quality perspective you'd put him in the mid-range category at the club, not as bad as the Sessegnon's, Lo Celso's and Lucas' but not as good as the Kane's, Son's and Bentancur's. Me personally, if I were a player at the club being barked orders by players who are nowhere near as good as me or known for regular errors, I'd probably find it counter-productive, yet if Robbie Keane or Ledley King for instance are telling me to run back and make a challenge or to give more umph to something then you best believe I'm not arguing with them.

As for Skippy, it probably is too early for someone like him to be considered influential or part of a player committee, both Jose and Conte have said he's future Spurs (and England) captain material but that's just it, future. He's gotta cement his spot in the XI first and as has been said, in a two-man midfield when all are fit, you're picking Bentancur and Bissouma. In a three-man midfield, potentially a different story as he'd be the best fit as the anchor but until that happens I don't think we should be looking at a young squad player as part of the leadership team of players at the club - though the fact we lack leaders, it's probably why Skipp is getting the supposed promotion.

Spot on. This is exactly my point.

Although even the three-man midfield is far from guaranteed. Many would argue that the 'Henderson workhorse' spot in that formation should go to Hojbjerg over Skipp. Others might argue that from the little we've seen, Sarr appears to have a higher ceiling than both of them so it is him we should be investing in.

Skipp's future at the club is precarious, especially in the guise of a regular first team player.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

You only need players giving 100% every game if you're compensating for a general lack of quality. And the more quality you lack, the more that slack needs to be carried by sheer blunt effort. Which is why players like Sissoko, Winks, Hojbjerg and Skipp have risen to prominence over recent seasons.

All teams need a player who'll give 100% every time they're on the pitch, because sometimes graft is far more necessary than quality

I know that sounds counterintuitive, after all quality should be enough to overcome any opponent, but that's the thing about the word "should" it often does a hell of a lot of heavy lifting and doesn't make allowances for times where we'd be facing dogged defences who are able to snuff out patterns or moves that would usually lead to creating a chance seven or eight times out of ten but aren't getting close - but sometimes that one player who grabs the bit by the teeth is able to make something happen as they're willing to run into a brick wall enough times that they can break through it

Case in point, there was at least one game where Jamie O'Hara came on and changed the game not due to talent (as he had barely any) but because he wasn't going to let the team go down without a fight, so he basically picked the fight for us

It also has to be said that players like that can also turn home games, again not because of their quality but because their effort can rally the crowd and get the volume increasing, sort of like how winning the ball with a last second crunching tackle can get the crowd off their feet as Sandro routinely did when he was in his pomp

 

[Dier Hard]

Spot on. This is exactly my point.

Although even the three-man midfield is far from guaranteed. Many would argue that the 'Henderson workhorse' spot in that formation should go to Hojbjerg over Skipp. Others might argue that from the little we've seen, Sarr appears to have a higher ceiling than both of them so it is him we should be investing in.

Skipp's future at the club is precarious, especially in the guise of a regular first team player.

Of our current crop, I think Skipp sitting behind Bentancur and Bissouma in a three man midfield is our best bet for solidity at the base and quality in front, I think he's the best tackling CM we have and as an outright DM I can see him flourishing. Hojbjerg rotating into the side for one of the other two would make more sense to me, similar for Sarr, who I agree has a huge ceiling and in time could/ should be considered for a more regular role.

A lot's gonna depend on our next manager though, if it is Slot or another progressive type of coach then I think from a senior player perspective, Hojbjerg will struggle more than most because for all his hard work and commitment he does lack the technical qualities the likes of Bentancur and Bissouma possess to play in a more progressive and possession-based system. Skipp might struggle too but it depends if the three-man midfield position is relying on an anchor or an advanced playmaker, if the former Skipp could be a key player, if the latter then he too might struggle for regular starts, though I'd still expect both he and Hojbjerg to be prominent squad players - if they accepted such roles, Hojbjerg more so than Skipp may not like the perceived demotion.

 

[PowerSpurs]

People are bound to disagree on the relative merits of players like Højbjerg, Winks, Sissoko, Lo Celso, Bissouma and even Bentacur because they are all at a similar level whereas Dembele was clearly at the level above. Skipp and Sarr are young enough to develop and make the grade so I would prefer them to be in the team enabling their development whereas I think Winks, Bissouma, Lo Celso and Højbjerg are already at their ceiling.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

All teams need a player who'll give 100% every time they're on the pitch, because sometimes graft is far more necessary than quality

I know that sounds counterintuitive, after all quality should be enough to overcome any opponent, but that's the thing about the word "should" it often does a hell of a lot of heavy lifting and doesn't make allowances for times where we'd be facing dogged defences who are able to snuff out patterns or moves that would usually lead to creating a chance seven or eight times out of ten but aren't getting close - but sometimes that one player who grabs the bit by the teeth is able to make something happen as they're willing to run into a brick wall enough times that they can break through it

Case in point, there was at least one game where Jamie O'Hara came on and changed the game not due to talent (as he had barely any) but because he wasn't going to let the team go down without a fight, so he basically picked the fight for us

It also has to be said that players like that can also turn home games, again not because of their quality but because their effort can rally the crowd and get the volume increasing, sort of like how winning the ball with a last second crunching tackle can get the crowd off their feet as Sandro routinely did when he was in his pomp

100% you need the right balance, which is why in Harry's team the fact that Bale, VDV, Huddlestone, Pav and Benny spent a lot of the time meandering around the pitch didn't matter because alongside them we had Dawson, Parker, Lennon etc. who left nothing on the pitch.

My point is in terms of how highly those players are valued. Inversely proportionate to a decline in quality is an increase in importance and centrality of workhorses. Which is the hallmark of a bottom half side, not a side aspiring for major trophies.

The absolute best teams have a lethal combination of effort and quality, so that even the 'luxury' players come off the pitch sweating buckets. We had that briefly under Poch and it is what makes City so hard to deal with.

 

[Dier Hard]

People are bound to disagree on the relative merits of players like Højbjerg, Winks, Sissoko, Lo Celso, Bissouma and even Bentacur because they are all at a similar level whereas Dembele was clearly at the level above. Skipp and Sarr are young enough to develop and make the grade so I would prefer them to be in the team enabling their development whereas I think Winks, Bissouma, Lo Celso and Højbjerg are already at their ceiling.

Naturally I do disagree.

It's very disingenuous to lump in Bissouma and especially Bentancur with most of those names. Bissouma's had a tough season here but was considered one of the best CMs in the Premier League at Brighton. Bentancur is clearly of a higher pedigree, having won titles in both Argentina and Italy and instantly improved us the moment he joined.

Hojbjerg and Lo Celso have qualities that make them solid players for sides that perhaps dream of playing in Europe in some capacity but aren't good enough to be playing for teams expected to qualify for elite European competition, Lo Celso especially here in England.

Sissoko and especially Winks are players who at best are starters for relegation candidates, hence why Sissoko has two relegations to his name and Winks now has one. The fact these two managed to be regular starters for us for a period of around 18 months highlights the decline we experienced from players such as Dembele and Wanyama.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

People are bound to disagree on the relative merits of players like Højbjerg, Winks, Sissoko, Lo Celso, Bissouma and even Bentacur because they are all at a similar level whereas Dembele was clearly at the level above. Skipp and Sarr are young enough to develop and make the grade so I would prefer them to be in the team enabling their development whereas I think Winks, Bissouma, Lo Celso and Højbjerg are already at their ceiling.

Bissouma and Bentancur do not belong in the same sentence as the others you've mentioned.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Naturally I do disagree.

It's very disingenuous to lump in Bissouma and especially Bentancur with most of those names. Bissouma's had a tough season here but was considered one of the best CMs in the Premier League at Brighton. Bentancur is clearly of a higher pedigree, having won titles in both Argentina and Italy and instantly improved us the moment he joined.

Hojbjerg and Lo Celso have qualities that make them solid players for sides that perhaps dream of playing in Europe in some capacity but aren't good enough to be playing for teams expected to qualify for elite European competition, Lo Celso especially here in England.

Sissoko and especially Winks are players who at best are starters for relegation candidates, hence why Sissoko has two relegations to his name and Winks now has one. The fact these two managed to be regular starters for us for a period of around 18 months highlights the decline we experienced from players such as Dembele and Wanyama.

We got to the CL final with Sissoko and Winks though.

 

[Dier Hard]

We got to the CL final with Sissoko and Winks though.

Because we had quality surrounding them that were able to overcompensate. If we had Bentancur and Bissouma in that midfield we might have just won the CL.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Because we had quality surrounding them that were able to overcompensate. If we had Bentancur and Bissouma in that midfield we might have just won the CL.

That season when we were fourth in the league, both Lucas Moura and Davidson Sanchez played more than half the matches ...is that the quality that made up for Sissoko and Winks?

 

[Dier Hard]

That season when we were fourth in the league, both Lucas Moura and Davidson Sanchez played more than half the matches ...is that the quality that made up for Sissoko and Winks?

No, Kane, Son, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Lloris did. We also had Dembele fit for roughly the first two or so months of that season and Dele was probably in the final stages of still being a decent player. Not forgetting squad players like Lamela and Llorente who were also helpful.

Winks and Sissoko had a combined 85 appearances that season and managed 1 goal and 4 assists between them. In half a season with a weaker overall team, Bentancur has managed 6 goals and 2 assists this campaign. Imagine how good he could be if he has the quality to further compliment his own, or how good he would've been in that very team?

The likes of Newcastle, Watford and Sampdoria didn't have such quality like we did and it's why all suffered relegations with those two part of them. They're relegation calibre players, just as a few of this current squad currently are.

 

[PowerSpurs]

No, Kane, Son, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Lloris did. We also had Dembele fit for roughly the first two or so months of that season and Dele was probably in the final stages of still being a decent player. Not forgetting squad players like Lamela and Llorente who were also helpful.

Winks and Sissoko had a combined 85 appearances that season and managed 1 goal and 4 assists between them. In half a season with a weaker overall team, Bentancur has managed 6 goals and 2 assists this campaign. Imagine how good he could be if he has the quality to further compliment his own, or how good he would've been in that very team?

The likes of Newcastle, Watford and Sampdoria didn't have such quality like we did and it's why all suffered relegations with those two part of them. They're relegation calibre players, just as a few of this current squad currently are.

Dembele was sold the previous season and Kane and Vertonghen played less than Lucas and Sanchez.
Goals and assists are not very relevant to the performance of two holding midfield players.
It is quite possible that Bentancur and Bissouma are an upgrade but it's far too early to tell.

 

[Dier Hard]

Dembele was sold the previous season and Kane and Vertonghen played less than Lucas and Sanchez.
Goals and assists are not very relevant to the performance of two holding midfield players.
It is quite possible that Bentancur and Bissouma are an upgrade but it's far too early to tell.

No he wasn’t, Dembele was sold in the January of the 18/19 season and played in the first 10 or so games before his injury.

No they aren’t but it certainly helps, the fact Bentancur’s managed goals and assists in a weaker overall team shows you his quality that those two in a better side couldn’t achieve.

It’s not too early to tell, I think you’re just in denial. Just as you once said Winks was as good/ better than Grealish.

 

[PowerSpurs]

No he wasn’t, Dembele was sold in the January of the 18/19 season and played in the first 10 or so games before his injury.

No they aren’t but it certainly helps, the fact Bentancur’s managed goals and assists in a weaker overall team shows you his quality that those two in a better side couldn’t achieve.

It’s not too early to tell, I think you’re just in denial. Just as you once said Winks was as good/ better than Grealish.

I was wrong about Dembele but he and Wanyama played very few matches. The midfield was basically two out of Sissoko, Dier and Winks for the whole season. I happen to think they were quite solid and covered the defence better than any combination we've seen since.
I was wrong about Grealish.

 

[paultheplug]

Bissouma and Bentancur do not belong in the same sentence as the others you've mentioned.

If Villa follow up their alleged interest in Lo Celso we may see the player he was at Betis and is at Argentina, just too late for us unfortunately.

 

[Dier Hard]

I was wrong about Dembele but he and Wanyama played very few matches. The midfield was basically two out of Sissoko, Dier and Winks for the whole season. I happen to think they were quite solid and covered the defence better than any combination we've seen since.
I was wrong about Grealish.

Our defence were far better back then though, we had two of the best defenders and keeper in Europe and despite a poor season Trippier was head and shoulders above what we have now. The amount of unforced errors the likes of Dier and co commit nowadays make it almost impossible to protect them. Our midfielders right now have a thankless task.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

As for Skippy, it probably is too early for someone like him to be considered influential or part of a player committee, both Jose and Conte have said he's future Spurs (and England) captain material but that's just it, future.

Surely there's some reason for this, though?
Why does every coach keep claiming that he has this future?
It's probably fair to assume that they're seeing something behind the scenes that we're not.