Off Topic The SIR Kenny Dalglish Public House

[THE FOOL]

I think most people vote for the party they've always voted for without giving it any more thought than that. Socialism these days is a lot different to what it used to be. These days many of those who claim to stand for socialism are walking, talking advertisements for capitalism: home owners, iPhone users in designer clothes driving Mercs on their way to the airport for their third foreign holiday that year. It's a bit like Animal Farm - "the creatures looked from pig to man and man to pig and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

This is very much true,

My granddad voted Labour all his life, talk to him though and he was a pinup boy for conservatism.
He just didn't realise it.

It's a funny thing but rabid left or right don't matter, it's the middle ground, those that will happily vote for someone else because they like them.

Unfortunately this middle ground isn't swayed by political ideology but by how good the sound bites are, how likable the candidate is, all **** that shouldn't really matter in who you pick to lead the country

 

[InBiscanWeTrust]

Can’t say I follow politics or have any interest in it really, I guess I’ve never really thought it affects me an awful lot even though I know it should, but I just get the impression that who ever is in charge generally the same stuff happens.

However from my pov it seems that one party will say this is good and the other will always tend to disagree and think it’s a terrible idea, they’re lying and it should be done a different way.

But if you think logically surely can’t always be wrong, and for the good of the country, why wouldn’t you sit down and talk it through and either pick the best bits from both.

Makes me laugh when they release their manifesto and then other party will say oh they copied us on this, it was our idea. In that case why does it matter? You wanted that to happen, it’s happening, you both think it’s a good idea so surely the general population have benefitted from it and everyone wins?

 

[Red Hadron Collider]

I remember seeing an anti-lockdown protest in Hyde Park last year, with a gaggle of barely literate Cockernees demanding their rights back from "this Communist government".
Imagine how far right you'd have to be to consider Boris a Communist. Though he does have the right name for one, I suppose - perhaps that's all it takes?
And speaking of Boris and the virus, I wonder what happened to that £350m a week that would go to the NHS if we weren't in Europe? I'm sure it's being well spent in combatting this deadly epidemic.
It really pisses me off that that blatantly false claim played a massive part in the decision-making of people who can't see beyond politicking and empty rhetoric. Boris wasn't even a supporter of Brexit until he saw it as an opportunity to cynically further his own career.
Prick.

****ing whoring his principles. Boris and principles - mutually exclusive.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Politicians rely on people thinking it doesn't really affect them.

Politicians hate high turn outs as it means people must actually sort of care about something.

They want people to believe nothing changes as long as they of course are in power.

Hell I dont really believe politicians believe they need to be in power to get paid and act up and get influence.

This is why I said numerous times Corbyn was unelectable. Imo a tide of "middle ground" who were so afraid he might take even a fiver out of their pocket voted for anything the tories put up.

This is why despite all the abuse I hear starmer getting for being a weak posh boy I know fundamentally he has far far.more chance of being elected as pm.

All he needs to do now to be Blair mark ii is get a cheery theme tune and talk tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.

 

[saintanton]

Politicians rely on people thinking it doesn't really affect them.

Politicians hate high turn outs as it means people must actually sort of care about something.

They want people to believe nothing changes as long as they of course are in power.

Hell I dont really believe politicians believe they need to be in power to get paid and act up and get influence.

This is why I said numerous times Corbyn was unelectable. Imo a tide of "middle ground" who were so afraid he might take even a fiver out of their pocket voted for anything the tories put up.

This is why despite all the abuse I hear starmer getting for being a weak posh boy I know fundamentally he has far far.more chance of being elected as pm.

All he needs to do now to be Blair mark ii is get a cheery theme tune and talk tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.

I agree. I also said that Corbyn was a disaster for the left- for the reasons you've outlined.
The RW press has done an effective hatchet job on any form of socialism throughout my entire life - unfortunately the socialist movement continually shoots itself in the foot by not understanding the minds of the electorate and allowing itself to be painted as back-door Communism.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I agree. I also said that Corbyn was a disaster for the left- for the reasons you've outlined.
The RW press has done an effective hatchet job on any form of socialism throughout my entire life - unfortunately the socialist movement continually shoots itself in the foot by not understanding the minds of the electorate and allowing itself to be painted as back-door Communism.

Yup rising above hardly ever works. It barely worked in yankland with Biden the commie

It's as easy for socialists to climb in the sewer and shout evil facist at centre right politicians.

However it seems far easier for right wing parties to scream communist at the middle class who will vote anything to prevent extra taxes than it is for left wing parties to engage with the middle ground while also appeasing their core vote.

You seem to have to promise no tax increases or you are a communist. Biden almost almost lost his way with tax rises for the ultra rich in yankland.

Despite a terrible record on many issues trump actually increased his vote in 2020 as he put the fear in his supporters about lax on crime (they fear being robbed) and tax increases (trump's first act was to do a subjective tax cut that was actually far more.beneficial to big business than any person.

I am willing to predict france will go far right in the next elections and germany will start the trip too.

Merkel has been all that's held it back there.

UK should be far.more worried about these types than we actually are. We seem to see it as shattering the eu and that's good but in the end breaking this up will lead to an inevitable outcome

 

[Germlands Nozzer]

I am willing to predict france will go far right in the next elections and germany will start the trip too.

Merkel has been all that's held it back there.

Germany already had that trip in the last national election, with about 15% going to the AfD, a big jump, though the far left held stable at about 10%, so a quarter of the vote went to parties on the political fringes. The AfD haven't really moved on from there though, and a certain amount will have been a protest vote rather than a proper far right vote. The Greens are currently the fashionable party and look set to be the big winners (in terms of gains) at the next election in the autumn, though a lot may depend in how both the Corona crisis and the leadership struggle in the CDU (Merkel's party) pan out.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

I agree. I also said that Corbyn was a disaster for the left- for the reasons you've outlined.
The RW press has done an effective hatchet job on any form of socialism throughout my entire life - unfortunately the socialist movement continually shoots itself in the foot by not understanding the minds of the electorate and allowing itself to be painted as back-door Communism.

I think the socialist movement shoots itself in the foot by not actually understanding what socialism is. From what I see those advocating socialism think it means trans rights, gay rights, Muslim rights, burn the flag, BLM, and activism in support of anything considered non-mainstream.

What about Joe Bloggs, the man in the street, who is struggling to find work, get a good school for his children, access to affordable housing and good health care. Who is looking out for him?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Germany already had that trip in the last national election, with about 15% going to the AfD, a big jump, though the far left held stable at about 10%, so a quarter of the vote went to parties on the political fringes. The AfD haven't really moved on from there though, and a certain amount will have been a protest vote rather than a proper far right vote. The Greens are currently the fashionable party and look set to be the big winners (in terms of gains) at the next election in the autumn, though a lot may depend in how both the Corona crisis and the leadership struggle in the CDU (Merkel's party) pan out.

Yup. The only thing that held it back is the genuine high esteem the older voters and conservatives have for Merkel. Every german I've talked to absolutely worships her.

The thing about greens for me is they are very much a fair weather party where people only vote when they are very secure in economical terms.

Nobody has thought green imo for 12months, not one second during covid and as we emerge people in the majority will be thinking about themselves.

It's going to be a populist feast as incumbents across the globe will be hammered for lockdown and covid irrespective of how stupid it is.

If those far right parties can lay blame at the door of immigrants for covid and at the eus door (easy meat) the nationalism can be the driver to a big break through.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I think the socialist movement shoots itself in the foot by not actually understanding what socialism is. From what I see those advocating socialism think it means trans rights, gay rights, Muslim rights, burn the flag, BLM, and activism in support of anything considered non-mainstream.

What about Joe Bloggs, the man in the street, who is struggling to find work, get a good school for his children, access to affordable housing and good health care. Who is looking out for him?

You've hit the nail on the head here.

This is what I mean by pink shirts and pin stripe socialists.

What they actually are is liberals.

In the modern would the union types like Corbyn are seen as protectionist imo The labour movement is a thing of the past. Its organised, obstructionist, status quo type of approach drags it down.

Where genuine protection from exploitation is badly needed now where the majority of big companies are now forcing contracts not permanent positions and retail.and other such Low skilled type of industries are forcing really poor zero hour deals.

People simply will not vote for union types yet they need to think about workers rights now again.


The amazing thing is that while appealing to younger voters long term with human rights and other such social issues is good in the end you never get power AND the funny thing is that as those young voters age they get more and more worried about money and themselves than social.issues

The average Joe is actually the average jemima or Abdul or whoever now. They all care the same about health, work, education and affording a nice house etc but none want to give up money to get them.

 

[Germlands Nozzer]

Yup. The only thing that held it back is the genuine high esteem the older voters and conservatives have for Merkel. Every german I've talked to absolutely worships her.

The thing about greens for me is they are very much a fair weather party where people only vote when they are very secure in economical terms.

Nobody has thought green imo for 12months, not one second during covid and as we emerge people in the majority will be thinking about themselves.

It's going to be a populist feast as incumbents across the globe will be hammered for lockdown and covid irrespective of how stupid it is.

If those far right parties can lay blame at the door of immigrants for covid and at the eus door (easy meat) the nationalism can be the driver to a big break through.

So far that hasn't really happened here though. The AfD, despite making the arguments you mention, aren't expanding beyond their core base and they're stuck at about 10%. That said, the government did quite well in the first half of the pandemic so managed to look good themselves. That's all unravelled this year though and they look a mess.

Agree that the Greens are a bit of a fad, but they're far more electable here than in the UK. With the main centre-left party (SPD) going down the drain, there's a political space they could occupy for a while.

And Merkel does have her critics btw., but generally she has good support (more than her party).

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Taken from the Socialist Worker regarding the candidates for the now vacant mayoral position in Liverpool after Starmer (central Labour Party) got involved in the process by blocking the three candidates put forward by the Labour Party in Liverpool: "Activists for Palestinian rights, Black Lives Matter and trade unionists, campaigners against climate change need representatives who are prepared to stand up."

All those put forward stood for the italicised bit above. The local Labour party think that this city needs a mayor who represents those 'values'. Nothing about having what it takes to run the city effectively and well without mis-spending of tax payers money etc. No wonder the council is in a mess with the mindset where activism is seen as being more desirable than competency to do the actual job.

 

[saintanton]

I think the socialist movement shoots itself in the foot by not actually understanding what socialism is. From what I see those advocating socialism think it means trans rights, gay rights, Muslim rights, burn the flag, BLM, and activism in support of anything considered non-mainstream.

What about Joe Bloggs, the man in the street, who is struggling to find work, get a good school for his children, access to affordable housing and good health care. Who is looking out for him?

Perhaps there should be another term, because socialism carries with it so much stigma.
All I mean when I use the term is a fairer society where policies are developed for the benefit of all rather than a particular group (of whatever side).
Socialism in the public mind seems inextricably linked with Marx and Engels (even though there were socialist movements long before them) and they advocated revolution as opposed to reform. This scares people - it would me.
Something else that scares me though is the thought of a future where everywhere is like the USA. It's a sick nation, imo - yet it's cultural hegemony is exporting its bankrupt values across the globe.
Makes me almost glad I'm old.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Perhaps there should be another term, because socialism carries with it so much stigma.
All I mean when I use the term is a fairer society where policies are developed for the benefit of all rather than a particular group (of whatever side).
Socialism in the public mind seems inextricably linked with Marx and Engels (even though there were socialist movements long before them) and they advocated revolution as opposed to reform. This scares people - it would me.
Something else that scares me though is the thought of a future where everywhere is like the USA. It's a sick nation, imo - yet it's cultural hegemony is exporting its bankrupt values across the globe.
Makes me almost glad I'm old.

I agree with all of this.

The socialism of our day has long since gone. As society changes, you would expect a change in socialism but while the particular issues change, the definition should remain the same. It simply hasn't. I watched a video from a college campus in America where the interviewer, a young person themselves, asked students what they would like America to look like going forward. Granted they only show the clip that they want to show, the majority said they believed socialism was the way to go. When asked what did socialism mean to them, not one person could answer. They didn't actually know what socialism was. It's a classic case of following the mob and then asking 'where is it we're going?'

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

So far that hasn't really happened here though. The AfD, despite making the arguments you mention, aren't expanding beyond their core base and they're stuck at about 10%. That said, the government did quite well in the first half of the pandemic so managed to look good themselves. That's all unravelled this year though and they look a mess.

Agree that the Greens are a bit of a fad, but they're far more electable here than in the UK. With the main centre-left party (SPD) going down the drain, there's a political space they could occupy for a while.

And Merkel does have her critics btw., but generally she has good support (more than her party).

How does the german voting differ fro first past the post here?

I know here it wouldn't matter how big a ground swell for greens here was it's simply never enough to get someone elected in a specific constituency

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I agree with all of this.

The socialism of our day has long since gone. As society changes, you would expect a change in socialism but while the particular issues change, the definition should remain the same. It simply hasn't. I watched a video from a college campus in America where the interviewer, a young person themselves, asked students what they would like America to look like going forward. Granted they only show the clip that they want to show, the majority said they believed socialism was the way to go. When asked what did socialism mean to them, not one person could answer. They didn't actually know what socialism was. It's a classic case of following the mob and then asking 'where is it we're going?'

It's a radical concept but democracy of the people, by the people, for the people sounds kind of communist to me (going by trump's supporters comments on liberty and freedom)

Are we really just talking about real democracy where the people in the country are put first?

Rather than some hack turning up once every 5 years to get a rubber stamp to continue shuffling in a trough with their corporate mates.

The maga types seem to put their personal fun and ability to do anything they like far above the people mentioned in their constitution

 

[saintanton]

The maga types seem to put their personal fun and ability to do anything they like far above the people mentioned in their constitution

Personal entitlement rather than collective responsibility is a major feature of the current zeitgeist.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Personal entitlement rather than collective responsibility is a major feature of the current zeitgeist.

Very true. I don't know what those who've invested into the BLM ideology are thinking right now with the news that one of the founders has just bought her fourth property, a $1.4m mansion in a classy predominately white neighbourhood. Marxist you say

 

[BobbyD]

How does the german voting differ fro first past the post here?

I know here it wouldn't matter how big a ground swell for greens here was it's simply never enough to get someone elected in a specific constituency

I haven't looked into it in massive detail but i believe you have 2 votes, one for their equivalent of local MP and one for central government. How it's all apportioned and all that i don't really know but i quite like this idea. At least you aren't stuck to voting in your local tory/labour etc if you think they are damn right dogshit just so that you get your preferred PM.

 

[Germlands Nozzer]

How does the german voting differ fro first past the post here?

I know here it wouldn't matter how big a ground swell for greens here was it's simply never enough to get someone elected in a specific constituency

Proportional representation. If a party gets less than 5%, their votes are taken out and then seats are allocated based on the remaining parties' share of the vote. So if the Greens get 25% (current status in the polls) of the vote they'll get about 25% of the seats. A coalition is then formed to get over 50%.