Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Stroller]

It seems to me that the EU is acting exactly as it should in putting pressure on the Irish government to collect a reasonable amount of tax from Apple. Multi-nationals have become more powerful than individual governments and it is only through international governmental co-operation that we can exert any form of control over them. It is grotesque that the Irish government should wish to appeal against a ruling that could result in a tax windfall of €13bn – in effect a massive bribe to Apple to remain in the Republic. I don’t doubt, though, that Britain, once free from EU shackles, would leap straight in to offer them a bigger bribe.

Governments shouldn’t be competing in a Corporation tax race-to-the-bottom re multi-nationals. Surely the solution is for individual nations to levy a turnover tax on them? If you want to sell your stuff to UK residents, you will pay tax to the UK government on how much you sell them.

 

[TheBigDipper]

I've seen comments on other forums that suggest the UK, in a post-Brexit world, could now act unilaterally and become a tax haven for multinationals to use as places to report their profits. Others say it's possible, but unlikely to be so attractive, as the reason it works within Europe is the "borderless, free trade" aspect of the single market. Once the UK is out of the single market, royalty payments to a UK-based HQ business could well be seen by the EU as an import from a country outside the EU - attracting import duty charges onto the EU-based business.

Does anyone here know what happens today when a US corporation charges its EU-based operation a "design fee" (or whatever they call it) in order to report that as US-based revenue rather than letting it stay in the EU as EU-based profit? Are duties payable by the EU operation as an import fee?

 

[danishqp]

The whole thing is quite depressing really and just goes to show that all the Govt's from all western countries have had their nose in the trough for years.
Born and bred in County Kilburn, I happen to have a little insight that before this "IT Tiger deal" there wasn't too much going on in the Green Country and any of you wanting to state the taxi business was doing great - I was at Leopardstown and The Curragh enough to know otherwise.

This type of thing has been going on for years in all countries -
Belgium/Holland - a delightful haven for a very well known furniture company - no worries about missing parts there
Singapore - simply adorable to large shipping family trusts
Spain - It's more than a decent paella that's the bonus for car manufacturers
Denmark - The pharmas don't need a paracetamol here
Lux/Switz/Mon/Leich - At least they've never hidden it

They're all at it

And it's been no secret for years anyway - but I am proud of Magrethe Vestager - The European Competion Commisioner who has forced this through,
a sexy lady from my neck of the woods who can handle her drink and lives by her values.

Shame on us all - and some on here writing - "well if we're out of Europe, we can take on the mantle of Tax paradise".

To Hell in a handcart - AND WE DESERVE IT. Up the RRRRRs

 

[finglasqpr]

It seems to me that the EU is acting exactly as it should in putting pressure on the Irish government to collect a reasonable amount of tax from Apple. Multi-nationals have become more powerful than individual governments and it is only through international governmental co-operation that we can exert any form of control over them. It is grotesque that the Irish government should wish to appeal against a ruling that could result in a tax windfall of €13bn – in effect a massive bribe to Apple to remain in the Republic. I don’t doubt, though, that Britain, once free from EU shackles, would leap straight in to offer them a bigger bribe.

Governments shouldn’t be competing in a Corporation tax race-to-the-bottom re multi-nationals. Surely the solution is for individual nations to levy a turnover tax on them? If you want to sell your stuff to UK residents, you will pay tax to the UK government on how much you sell them.

Go ahead and do it now. There is nothing stopping the UK from doing it whether inside or outside the EU. A better question is, why do the likes of Apple NOT want to be based in the UK? How much tax has the UK forced Vodafone to pay? There's a question for you. This issue at stake here is whether the EU has the power to dictate individual countries tax policy. Ireland believes it doesn't. The EU believes it does. The battle lines have been drawn. Lets see where it all ends.

 

[durbar2003]

Go ahead and do it now. There is nothing stopping the UK from doing it whether inside or outside the EU. A better question is, why do the likes of Apple NOT want to be based in the UK? How much tax has the UK forced Vodafone to pay? There's a question for you. This issue at stake here is whether the EU has the power to dictate individual countries tax policy. Ireland believes it doesn't. The EU believes it does. The battle lines have been drawn. Lets see where it all ends.

All EU countries are free to set their own taxes but what the EU says, and Ireland and other country's agreed to, is that those taxes must be applied to all not some.

 

[Stroller]

Go ahead and do it now. There is nothing stopping the UK from doing it whether inside or outside the EU. A better question is, why do the likes of Apple NOT want to be based in the UK? How much tax has the UK forced Vodafone to pay? There's a question for you. This issue at stake here is whether the EU has the power to dictate individual countries tax policy. Ireland believes it doesn't. The EU believes it does. The battle lines have been drawn. Lets see where it all ends.

I'd rather the UK didn't go into the tax haven business, and I'm happy that the EU has taken a hand to try to ensure that Apple has to pay a fair amount of tax. The EU isn't trying to dictate Ireland's tax policy, it is trying to ensure that it is applied fairly.

 

[finglasqpr]

I'd rather the UK didn't go into the tax haven business, and I'm happy that the EU has taken a hand to try to ensure that Apple has to pay a fair amount of tax. The EU isn't trying to dictate Ireland's tax policy, it is trying to ensure that it is applied fairly.

So, I'll ask the question again, how much money have Vodafone paid in taxes to the UK Government? As Danish says, they are all at it.

 

[durbar2003]

So, I'll ask the question again, how much money have Vodafone paid in taxes to the UK Government? As Danish says, they are all at it.

So you're saying that because others are doing it then its ok? Some people do runners from taxis so because some do it its ok??

 

[danishqp]

Go ahead and do it now. There is nothing stopping the UK from doing it whether inside or outside the EU. A better question is, why do the likes of Apple NOT want to be based in the UK? How much tax has the UK forced Vodafone to pay? There's a question for you. This issue at stake here is whether the EU has the power to dictate individual countries tax policy. Ireland believes it doesn't. The EU believes it does. The battle lines have been drawn. Lets see where it all ends.

So Sir,

A while back you were vociferously pontificating on the idiocy of the UK majority who did not want to live their lives directed by removed powers of Brussels and Germany.
Today, you seem to be, with the same sense of vindication, advising that it is just and proper that Ireland continue it's tax haven for the IT World against the wishes and moral law of the very same Brussels and Germany.

Me thinks there is something amiss here with your own moral position. Fair paly to your country, you had jack on the go before you entered into this - but just admit it for what it is. Oh, and perhaps, just perhaps, rethink your own opinion on venting your own twisted view on others, certainly on the subject of Europe anyway.

 

[TheBigDipper]

<snip>

Shame on us all - and some on here writing - "well if we're out of Europe, we can take on the mantle of Tax paradise".

<endsnip>

I hope we don't. I'm fairly positive at least one person who suggested we might doesn't actually want it, either, but doesn't think much of the people who make the decisions on our behalf.

It's interesting looking at corporate tax rates in other countries. Some very successful countries (in economic terms) have much higher rates than we do. I was musing that a high corporate tax rate might encourage a company to re-invest revenues into R&D or retool a factory (making them more efficient/competitive) instead of declaring that revenue as profit and paying tax on it.

 

[Stroller]

So, I'll ask the question again, how much money have Vodafone paid in taxes to the UK Government? As Danish says, they are all at it.

I don't doubt that the UK has been soft on multi-nationals too Finglas, and I'd rather our government took a harder line. I would also be perfectly happy for the EU to take them to task over the issue if they felt that they were acting unfairly. As I said before, a race to the bottom over Corporate tax rates can only benefit the multi-nationals themselves at the end of the day. Governments should act jointly (via the EU or G7) to ensure that they are forced to pay a reasonable amount of tax.

 

[durbar2003]

Ireland spent many years and lost many lives getting out from under the rule of the English but now they are happily under the rule of the EU. England didn't want that hence Brexit!

 

[finglasqpr]

So Sir,

A while back you were vociferously pontificating on the idiocy of the UK majority who did not want to live their lives directed by removed powers of Brussels and Germany.
Today, you seem to be, with the same sense of vindication, advising that it is just and proper that Ireland continue it's tax haven for the IT World against the wishes and moral law of the very same Brussels and Germany.

Me thinks there is something amiss here with your own moral position. Fair paly to your country, you had jack on the go before you entered into this - but just admit it for what it is. Oh, and perhaps, just perhaps, rethink your own opinion on venting your own twisted view on others, certainly on the subject of Europe anyway.

I'm very surprised at the tone of your post Danish.

First of all, I never pontificated to anybody. During the Brexit debate, I voiced my opinion that it was in Europe's overall interests for the UK to remain in the EU. The UK people voted to exit and I said that the people have spoken and all of us need to move on and respect the vote.

Today, I am not saying that it is "just and proper that Ireland continue it's tax haven for the IT world against the wishes and moral law of the very same Brussels and Germany". I am saying that it is right for us to set our own tax policy and that it is right for ourselves and Apple to appeal the decision. I am also saying that clearly, Ireland isn't the only country that is a "tax haven". You acknowledge that yourself by saying "they are all at it". I am also saying that the 13BN euros doesn't belong to us. It belongs to the governments Worldwide were Apple made their sales. It is not right that we should be the tax collectors for the rest of the world in this matter.

The last line of your post has me totally perplexed. I accept that you may not agree with my opinion but how you think that I am "venting my own twisted view on others". Each of us has our opinions and I certainly don't force my opinion on anybody. If you consider my view "twisted". Fair enough. To me it is not twisted at all and it is just a personal opinion.

There is nothing amiss with my "own moral position". I am pro EU. I am also pro each countries right to set their own tax policies.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I am pro EU. I am also pro each countries right to set their own tax policies.

Aren't 1. being in the Euro and 2. each country setting its own tax policies, ultimately in conflict with each other?

 

[finglasqpr]

I don't doubt that the UK has been soft on multi-nationals too Finglas, and I'd rather our government took a harder line. I would also be perfectly happy for the EU to take them to task over the issue if they felt that they were acting unfairly. As I said before, a race to the bottom over Corporate tax rates can only benefit the multi-nationals themselves at the end of the day. Governments should act jointly (via the EU or G7) to ensure that they are forced to pay a reasonable amount of tax.

The Irish Government HAVE ensured Apple paid all taxes due to our state.

The Irish Government are saying they can not force Apple to pay taxes on sales made in OTHER countries.

That is the big issue.

 

[finglasqpr]

Aren't 1. being in the Euro and 2. each country setting its own tax policies, ultimately in conflict with each other?

Simple answer, no.

 

[danishqp]

I'm very surprised at the tone of your post Danish.

First of all, I never pontificated to anybody. During the Brexit debate, I voiced my opinion that it was in Europe's overall interests for the UK to remain in the EU. The UK people voted to exit and I said that the people have spoken and all of us need to move on and respect the vote.

Today, I am not saying that it is "just and proper that Ireland continue it's tax haven for the IT world against the wishes and moral law of the very same Brussels and Germany". I am saying that it is right for us to set our own tax policy and that it is right for ourselves and Apple to appeal the decision. I am also saying that clearly, Ireland isn't the only country that is a "tax haven". You acknowledge that yourself by saying "they are all at it". I am also saying that the 13BN euros doesn't belong to us. It belongs to the governments Worldwide were Apple made their sales. It is not right that we should be the tax collectors for the rest of the world in this matter.

The last line of your post has me totally perplexed. I accept that you may not agree with my opinion but how you think that I am "venting my own twisted view on others". Each of us has our opinions and I certainly don't force my opinion on anybody. If you consider my view "twisted". Fair enough. To me it is not twisted at all and it is just a personal opinion.

There is nothing amiss with my "own moral position". I am pro EU. I am also pro each countries right to set their own tax policies.

It was harsh Finglas but......
How can you be Pro EU but not want to live wholly by their laws, which in this case, I find one of their much better one's.
You work hard, are probably self employed so to all intents and purposes a private company.
Why should you not pay 0.0005% tax?

Or 50% more of that - 0.00075%

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Simple answer, no.

The following was reported in May 2015 for the whole of EU, which characteristically, the UK opposed.

But following Brexit, what is to stop the Eurozone bringing this in? It seems obvious for the fiscal harmony needed to prevent the recurrence of the Greek debacle.

I think Ireland will be fighting a losing battle. Prepare for Irelexit!

QUOTE
France and Germany are pushing plans to introduce a minimum corporation tax rate across the continent, it was reported today, in a move that could result in higher taxes on British companies.

European officials will debate plans to set a EU-wide floor on corporation tax in order to crack down on tax havens such as Ireland and Luxembourg, it emerged.

The plans are a direct challenge to David Cameron, who is calling for sovereignty to be returned to EU members.

• All across Europe, the dissatisfaction is clear

Britain is prepared to veto any proposals that see it surrendering power over tax rates to Brussels.

"We have a long-standing view on tax harmonisation, which is not to support it," said a Downing Street spokesman.

However, campaigners said it showed the scale of the challenge David Cameron faces in renegotiating Britain’s membership.

“It is a direction of travel issue,” said Robert Oxley, of campaign group Business for Britain. “It shows the EU thinks corporation tax is an area of common concern, suggesting there are those at the heart of the Eurozone who want more power over Britain, not less.”

On Wednesday, EU officials are scheduled to discuss how to tackle tax avoidance and create a system of “fair, transparent and growth friendly” corporation taxation at an orientation debate in the College of Commissioners, a forum used to float ideas.

The discussion will “feed into” an announcement on corporation tax in June.UNQUOTE

 

[durbar2003]

The Irish Government HAVE ensured Apple paid all taxes due to our state.

The Irish Government are saying they can not force Apple to pay taxes on sales made in OTHER countries.

That is the big issue.

The EU, to which Ireland is beholding, says you can.

 

[finglasqpr]

It was harsh Finglas but......
How can you be Pro EU but not want to live wholly by their laws, which in this case, I find one of their much better one's.
You work hard, are probably self employed so to all intents and purposes a private company.
Why should you not pay 0.0005% tax?

Or 50% more of that - 0.00075%

That is like saying, you are married but must accept every single thing your missus says. You have the right to question and compromise. I am pro EU but I think it is right that individual countries question decisions made in Brussels. There is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't mean that a divorce is imminent.

Yes I work and I am self employed and yes, I pay my share of taxes. The problem here is, Apple are avoiding paying taxes due to other countries. It is up to the International community to agree a solution to this problem.