Off Topic The Politics Thread

[ELLERS]

We need to just get on with it and leave. I don't think its going to be very good for the country, and suspect I'll end up working in Frankfort or (more likely) Dublin, but they need to make a start now and not wait for French/German elections next year.

I'm detecting an undercurrent of fear in some quarters that Parliament might not pass the motion to invoke Article 50 - despite the 52%-48% vote. They fear that the longer it drags on without being passed, the more likely it won't happen. Hence the increase in emotional levels and daft talk about "coups" happening if we don't.

I don't expect MPs to have the guts to oppose the result, myself, even if they believed it to be wrong. I still think Article 50 will be invoked and we will leave. I'm quite positive that Davis will get the best deal we are likely to get, too.

Sorry guys i never meant to add you into the post.

 

[Chaz]

As if i am going to listen to that plonk. Old news and he would complain even if there was nothing to complain about. Blokes a muppet.

No - he's accurately expressing the views of (at least) 48% of the population. Dismissing that concern, and the opinion of people who quite rightly voice concerns, is what got us here. Everyone has a right to engage in this mess, and only by enabling everyone to engage will the outcome work.

 

[ELLERS]

No - he's accurately expressing the views of (at least) 48% of the population. Dismissing that concern, and the opinion of people who quite rightly voice concerns, is what got us here. Everyone has a right to engage in this mess, and only by enabling everyone to engage will the outcome work.

Mess? For many it's the best thing that could have happened.
All the project fear, doom and gloom WWIII the country will go bust? What's happened? Markets have moved but they did when we were in the EU. What else? We carry on as usual.
Voice your concerns, go on your marches, flood social media with your drivel but at the end of it, we move on.
As i said if people don't believe in democracy go and move to Korea (or one of those really democratic countries) and see if you get the chance to vote.
Boring now. zzzzzzzzzz

Well done to Arm who design microchips for 95%of smartphones in the World. The company will double it's staff and bring billions into this country!
Funny i was told (project fear) that no one other than the EU would trade with us and all the companies would leave? I guess no one told the Japanese? I mean who wants to trade with Japan when we have Greece,Latvia and Co?

 

[TheBigDipper]

<snip>
Well done to Arm who design microchips for 95%of smartphones in the World. The company will double it's staff and bring billions into this country!
Funny i was told (project fear) that no one other than the EU would trade with us and all the companies would leave? I guess no one told the Japanese? I mean who wants to trade with Japan when we have Greece,Latvia and Co?

I hate to spoil things for you, but it isn't the way you seem to see it.

They're certainly an innovative, British success, but ARM is not a large scale manufacturing company. They design their chips and then licence the design to other firms who build the chips in other countries. ARM earns its money via royalty payments on huge numbers of chips embedded in tech devices.

Now they are owned by a foreign company. Of course, what they've bought is the know-how of the people that design this stuff and the revenue stream from the royalty payments, which are currently billed out of the UK. One of the byproducts of the deal will be those people will no longer be able to keep that know-how to themselves as a commercial secret - they'll be forced to share it with other engineers in other countries working in their parent company. That monopoly will ultimately be lost. If engineers close to the factories also have that knowledge, then the UK team becomes vulnerable. Another is that the UK people could be redesignated as just an R&D laboratory and the sales and royalty payments could be moved to Japan.

You also seem to be confusing the purchase of a UK company by a Japanese company with trading between the UK and Japan. It isn't the same thing at all.

Sorry.

 

[Chaz]

As the person trying to suppress a dissenting voice, you are the one displaying undemocratic traits, Ellers. Surely you can see the irony / hypocrisy in that stance?

I will continue to call Leave supporters to account.

 

[ELLERS]

It will happen and people need to accept it. If they tried to do a u-turn (which they won't) it would cause major problems. The EU is flawed and will break up at some point. I want to be on the outside looking in as it self-destructs.

Oops sorry guys i never meant to add you into the post.

 

[ELLERS]

I hate to spoil things for you, but it isn't the way you seem to see it.

They're certainly an innovative, British success, but ARM is not a large scale manufacturing company. They design their chips and then licence the design to other firms who build the chips in other countries. ARM earns its money via royalty payments on huge numbers of chips embedded in tech devices.

Now they are owned by a foreign company. Of course, what they've bought is the know-how of the people that design this stuff and the revenue stream from the royalty payments, which are currently billed out of the UK. One of the byproducts of the deal will be those people will no longer be able to keep that know-how to themselves as a commercial secret - they'll be forced to share it with other engineers in other countries working in their parent company. That monopoly will ultimately be lost. If engineers close to the factories also have that knowledge, then the UK team becomes vulnerable. Another is that the UK people could be redesignated as just an R&D laboratory and the sales and royalty payments could be moved to Japan.

You also seem to be confusing the purchase of a UK company by a Japanese company with trading between the UK and Japan. It isn't the same thing at all.

Sorry.

Funny i have just listened to an analyst on the news who says it's a great thing. So who do i listen to someone on social media or a professional analyst? sorry.

 

[Chaz]

Funny i have just listened to an analyst on the news who says it's a great thing. So who do i listen to someone on social media or a professional analyst? sorry.

Well you ignored the many thousands of professionals and experts who said that we should stay in the EU. What's the harm in dismissing the opinion of one more expert?

Of course, you could always go do some empirical research and not listen to anyone else. That's what I did pre-referendum. It's just a shame that more people didn't do that...

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

No - he's accurately expressing the views of (at least) 48% of the population. Dismissing that concern, and the opinion of people who quite rightly voice concerns, is what got us here. Everyone has a right to engage in this mess, and only by enabling everyone to engage will the outcome work.

Of course they and everyone else can engage - what they must not do is find a way to frustrate the will of the majority of the people by preventing Brexit after a democratically held referendum - any more than Brexit supporters could force the country to leave the EU after a 52% Remain majority

 

[ELLERS]

Well you ignored the many thousands of professionals and experts who said that we should stay in the EU. What's the harm in dismissing the opinion of one more expert?

Of course, you could always go do some empirical research and not listen to anyone else. That's what I did pre-referendum. It's just a shame that more people didn't do that...

That's the irony of the post. i thought even you could have worked that out. You are beginning to sound like 2 Derby supporters i meet on the train home after the Play-off final. They couldn't accept they had just lost.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Funny i have just listened to an analyst on the news who says it's a great thing. So who do i listen to someone on social media or a professional analyst? sorry.

Listen to the experts. Remain were always telling us to. They produced thousands

 

[ELLERS]

Of course they and everyone else can engage - what they must not do is find a way to frustrate the will of the majority of the people by preventing Brexit after a democratically held referendum - any more than Brexit supporters could force the country to leave the EU after a 52% Remain majority

I don't think they can accept it and move on Goldhawk. they are re-spinning the same old project fear. I actually believe that some want our country to fail so they can say 'I told you so". The thing is we will regroup and get stronger. However even if we do really well these muppets will still bitch about things.

 

[ELLERS]

Listen to the experts. Remain were always telling us to. They produced thousands

It was a joke mate.

 

[Chaz]

Of course they and everyone else can engage - what they must not do is find a way to frustrate the will of the majority of the people by preventing Brexit after a democratically held referendum - any more than Brexit supporters could force the country to leave the EU after a 52% Remain majority

Nobody is saying that. I'm certainly not. However, pointing out the blatant lies that led many people to vote Leave, and highlighting the promises made that now seem a million miles away (like £350 million a week, reductions in immigration, a sudden freedom to trade outside the EU when in reality we could do that anyway) is something that we will continue to do, because that's what this 'democracy' that ellers seems hooked on is all about. The Remainers are saying stuff he personally disagrees with, however they need to continue to raise these points so that those in power are judged on their promises.

 

[ELLERS]

Nobody is saying that. I'm certainly not. However, pointing out the blatant lies that led many people to vote Leave, and highlighting the promises made that now seem a million miles away (like £350 million a week, reductions in immigration, a sudden freedom to trade outside the EU when in reality we could do that anyway) is something that we will continue to do, because that's what this 'democracy' that ellers seems hooked on is all about. The Remainers are saying stuff he personally disagrees with, however they need to continue to raise these points so that those in power are judged on their promises.

The problem is Chaz, is that you knock 'Leavers' and you waffle on about: £350 million a week, reductions in immigration, a sudden freedom to trade outside the EU blah blah blah.
The one thing you have never once, Never once calculated into you are argument is......
wait for it...
We haven't left yet! So before you make all these 'doom and gloom' predictions, at least wait until it can be proved. come back with all your pessimistic crap after we are out, until then go on a few marches or sign the online petition.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Nobody is saying that. I'm certainly not. However, pointing out the blatant lies that led many people to vote Leave, and highlighting the promises made that now seem a million miles away (like £350 million a week, reductions in immigration, a sudden freedom to trade outside the EU when in reality we could do that anyway) is something that we will continue to do, because that's what this 'democracy' that ellers seems hooked on is all about. The Remainers are saying stuff he personally disagrees with, however they need to continue to raise these points so that those in power are judged on their promises.

There are some that are saying it. Tin-Tin Farron (who says Parliament should vote down Article 50 irrespective of the referendum result), some in Labour, Green, the wee ginger lassie, even the Tory Europhile Dominic Grieve suggested yesterday that the country should have a vote on the Brexit proposals once negotiated. I wouldn't like to think what would happen in this country if that happened, but there would be genuine chaos.

There were huge exaggerations/ lies - call them what you will - on both sides of the argument. Cameron and Osborn were busy selling their mothers to get a win. World war 3, end of the queue, the punishment budget etc... You cannot point to the winning side and say they should be disqualified because they cheated. Both sides cheated. They're both made up of politicians, and that's what they do.

 

[sb_73]

Nobody is saying that. I'm certainly not. However, pointing out the blatant lies that led many people to vote Leave, and highlighting the promises made that now seem a million miles away (like £350 million a week, reductions in immigration, a sudden freedom to trade outside the EU when in reality we could do that anyway) is something that we will continue to do, because that's what this 'democracy' that ellers seems hooked on is all about. The Remainers are saying stuff he personally disagrees with, however they need to continue to raise these points so that those in power are judged on their promises.

On a point of fact, members of the EU cannot make bilateral trade deals with non EU countries, it all needs to be done under the umbrella of the EU. Which makes sense, because if you import something to the UK with no tariffs you could then re-export it into another EU country tariff free, when it should attract a charge. Likewise a German machine could be sent tariff free to the UK and then re- exported to the third country.

Nit picking I know, but you have made that point twice. It shows how stunningly complicated this will get, even if we achieve a free trade agreement with the EU, there will be loads of exclusions and sub clauses. Partly why I think a quick and clean break with the EU, followed by negotiations on trade ( there is no chance we will remain in the single market) is preferable. It doesn't matter how many countries 'Dr' Fox is talking to, we can't sign any agreements until we have properly left the EU and the Single Market. I see no reason why the actual process of unpicking regulations etc can't continue after we have formally left, after all there is no precedent to break. Also minimise the chances for Davis, the one I thought was going to be ok, putting his foot in his mouth with unthought through stuff on EU citizens like he did yesterday.

I voted Remain, but who knows how many people on either side voted in ignorance or fear or because they believed lies? Cuts both ways.

Of course they and everyone else can engage - what they must not do is find a way to frustrate the will of the majority of the people by preventing Brexit after a democratically held referendum - any more than Brexit supporters could force the country to leave the EU after a 52% Remain majority

I find the phrase 'must not frustrate the will of the majority' quite chilling.
"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." Thomas Jefferson
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff135371.html

I don't think they can accept it and move on Goldhawk. they are re-spinning the same old project fear. I actually believe that some want our country to fail so they can say 'I told you so". The thing is we will regroup and get stronger. However even if we do really well these muppets will still bitch about things.

Time for you to move on Ellers

 

[durbar2003]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I find the phrase 'must not frustrate the will of the majority' quite chilling.
"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." Thomas Jefferson

In what respect does what I say, conflict with the words of the great Thomas Jefferson, Stan?

 

[ELLERS]

Time for you to move on Ellers

I have moved on twice but keep seeing 'doom and gloom' merchants Sb.