Off Topic The Politics Thread

[vblockiain]

And that's a valid point to make, I just didn't think Lyme was an especially good example of its impact. Boston is a good one, where migrants have made the town much richer, but also changed its character massively and brought accompanying tension. Probably we are experiencing what the Celts did when the Anglo Saxons turned up.

I have tried reading it, it's more confusing the second and third times. I must have missed your point on where we are allowed to spend money. If you use terms like 'subjugate populations' and 'Fourth Reich' you must expect a reaction. Of course everybody has a right to an opinion, just as everyone has a right to challenge an opinion. My response was probably too much, sorry, but I was responding to what you wrote, not trying to demean you.

You are right, a lot of what I write is questionable, I am constantly amazed that it's not picked up on more often.

Commissioners are non elected, but they are appointed by elected governments. Everything they propose has to be passed by the elected EU Parliament and the EU Council of Ministers, consisting of elected ministers from each national government. It's cumbersome and bureaucratic, and above all it feels distant, but it has plenty of checks and balances. And why does electing people make them qualified or competent? Just look at our own government, which, incidentally, includes 25 ministers who are unelected members of the House of Lords.

If the EU was made more transparently democratic would you be voting Remain?

I note you are very strong on facts that is ok as your approach to a debate ,however my definition of a fact is an opinion that has been accepted by a norming group to the point of not being challenged by recipients.I believe that discussions ,disputes. elections referendums are not won on facts but emotions & there is a long history of facts becoming derided as passe or irrelevant once emotions enter the discussion A good example would be when Norway had a similar referendum (in or not in ) the same scare tactics & fact bombardment occurred( as we are being subjected to )eventually emotions kicked in our nation, our resources, our sovereignty ,our national emotional persona They voted to retain control whatever level of involvement they later decided to obtain.Similarly the turn around in the Scottish referendum the eventual end of slavery by Wilberforce all these decisions turned on the emotional response of opinions over facts.As someone involved in debates ,elections team development i know (Sorry believe )that the terms 4th Reich, subjugation & oppression will produce an emotional impact way ahead of any fact.We are all game players & i like your style but feel that my jump in jump out comment will be remembered.But there again it may only be an opinion

 

[sb_73]

I note you are very strong on facts that is ok as your approach to a debate ,however my definition of a fact is an opinion that has been accepted by a norming group to the point of not being challenged by recipients.I believe that discussions ,disputes. elections referendums are not won on facts but emotions & there is a long history of facts becoming derided as passe or irrelevant once emotions enter the discussion A good example would be when Norway had a similar referendum (in or not in ) the same scare tactics & fact bombardment occurred( as we are being subjected to )eventually emotions kicked in our nation, our resources, our sovereignty ,our national emotional persona They voted to retain control whatever level of involvement they later decided to obtain.Similarly the turn around in the Scottish referendum the eventual end of slavery by Wilberforce all these decisions turned on the emotional response of opinions over facts.As someone involved in debates ,elections team development i know (Sorry believe )that the terms 4th Reich, subjugation & oppression will produce an emotional impact way ahead of any fact.We are all game players & i like your style but feel that my jump in jump out comment will be remembered.But there again it may only be an opinion

Touché. Good points. Of course my facts are chosen to support an opinion (and often an opinion I'm not especially attached to, the curse of the contrarian), rarely to form one. I can rarely resist responding to the sweeping generalisation which is unsubstantiated though, it's a bit OCD. I know nearly all decisions are taken based on emotion then have the facts retro fitted to them (blokes in particular like to have this ersatz rationality. Which is of course a sweeping generalisation). You should post more often (though it might diminish your emotional impact), might be fun.

 

[vblockiain]

Touché. Good points. Of course my facts are chosen to support an opinion (and often an opinion I'm not especially attached to, the curse of the contrarian), rarely to form one. I can rarely resist responding to the sweeping generalisation which is unsubstantiated though, it's a bit OCD. I know nearly all decisions are taken based on emotion then have the facts retro fitted to them (blokes in particular like to have this ersatz rationality. Which is of course a sweeping generalisation). You should post more often (though it might diminish your emotional impact), might be fun.

Will try I have a number of horn locking activities locally in Devon but non conformers /rebels are few & far between especially a gun boat Tory like me.I think i have a name for Cameron et all( the factoidals} but they could not find it let alone hang on to it

 

[Stroller]

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!

The sun on the meadow is summery warm.
The stag in the forest runs free.
But gather together to greet the storm.
Tomorrow belongs to me.
The branch of the linden is leafy and green,
The Rhine gives its gold to the sea.
But somewhere a glory awaits unseen.
Tomorrow belongs to me.
The babe in his cradle is closing his eyes
The blossom embraces the bee.
But soon, says a whisper;
"Arise, arise,
Tomorrow belongs..."

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The sun on the meadow is summery warm.
The stag in the forest runs free.
But gather together to greet the storm.
Tomorrow belongs to me.
The branch of the linden is leafy and green,
The Rhine gives its gold to the sea.
But somewhere a glory awaits unseen.
Tomorrow belongs to me.
The babe in his cradle is closing his eyes
The blossom embraces the bee.
But soon, says a whisper;
"Arise, arise,
Tomorrow belongs..."

A sign of the times, as per Eurovision, that at least this is sung in English before each EU meeting of the Council of Ministers

 

[swanseaandproud]

If you listen carefully to that idiot Boris and IDS They are Europeans and want to be a part of Europe but they want a better deal... They are banking on using you and me as pawns that if we come out we can fight for a better deal and they want to rejoin the EU in a couple of years if they manage a better deal....they wont accept that this cant happen even after being told by Brussels that if we vote out we are out for good and no turning back as we will have made our bed and now we must lie in it. So dont be fooled into thinking Boris who has a house and family living in Europe dont want to be part of the EU because he is more European than most people. Ok he admitted that coming out benefits the rich off the backs of the rest of us and he knows jobs will be lost but he has it in his own tiny mind that we can get a better deal with the EU if we are on the outside.......He is gambling with peoples lives while no risk to his own as its a price worth paying. He wont accept that we cant rejoin and he could not care less about how the peoples lives will change for the worst........Well sorry but i wont take a gamble with my families future on a hunch we can get a better deal outside the EU and would be more comfortable of fighting for a better deal inside the EU and besides we have done much better than most of our partners anyway......Vote out = certain Job losses and poverty and that is not a price worth paying.....for anyone

 

[TheBigDipper]

I've got a theory about Mr Johnson. He needs to differentiate himself from Cameron in order to pursue his career goal of replacing him. He knows he cannot do that if he is in the "Remain" camp, so he joins the "Leave" camp. If the "Leave" camp wins, he may get some career advantage. If the "Remain" camp wins he will try and get some career advantage by trying to use his choice to show he is a conviction politician and a man of principle. Orwell would be turning in his grave - DoublePlus Ungood.

 

[sb_73]

The sun on the meadow is summery warm.
The stag in the forest runs free.
But gather together to greet the storm.
Tomorrow belongs to me.
The branch of the linden is leafy and green,
The Rhine gives its gold to the sea.
But somewhere a glory awaits unseen.
Tomorrow belongs to me.
The babe in his cradle is closing his eyes
The blossom embraces the bee.
But soon, says a whisper;
"Arise, arise,
Tomorrow belongs..."

I like the Sensational Alex Harvey version. I also like the fact that the song has been appropriated by some far right nutters because they think it was a Nazi anthem, when it was in fact written by 2 Jewish men for the film Cabaret.

 

[vblockiain]

If you listen carefully to that idiot Boris and IDS They are Europeans and want to be a part of Europe but they want a better deal... They are banking on using you and me as pawns that if we come out we can fight for a better deal and they want to rejoin the EU in a couple of years if they manage a better deal....they wont accept that this cant happen even after being told by Brussels that if we vote out we are out for good and no turning back as we will have made our bed and now we must lie in it. So dont be fooled into thinking Boris who has a house and family living in Europe dont want to be part of the EU because he is more European than most people. Ok he admitted that coming out benefits the rich off the backs of the rest of us and he knows jobs will be lost but he has it in his own tiny mind that we can get a better deal with the EU if we are on the outside.......He is gambling with peoples lives while no risk to his own as its a price worth paying. He wont accept that we cant rejoin and he could not care less about how the peoples lives will change for the worst........Well sorry but i wont take a gamble with my families future on a hunch we can get a better deal outside the EU and would be more comfortable of fighting for a better deal inside the EU and besides we have done much better than most of our partners anyway......Vote out = certain Job losses and poverty and that is not a price worth paying.....for anyone

Some muddled thinking here -we are all Europeans, some of us love Europe, some hate Europe. EU is not Europe .EU is a trade club in the control of Germany,unelected commissioners & their relationship with large multi national bodies (including banks.)I cannot trust the implementation of policies that are presented by self interested conglomerates with funding going to EU for preferred status. Funding has gone to China steel industry to aid holding down prices at the expense of our industry.TTIP is a US trade deal being negotiated with EU to give trading & tender advantages for US companies over home businesses & latest is the desire to privatise all European railways on UK model This demos some of the madness but hey ho we each have a right to make our own mind up.Enjoy it while you can because it will all be decided by Johnny Foreigner soon enough if we stay in EU!

 

[TheBigDipper]

Some muddled thinking here -we are all Europeans, some of us love Europe, some hate Europe. EU is not Europe .EU is a trade club in the control of Germany,unelected commissioners & their relationship with large multi national bodies (including banks.)I cannot trust the implementation of policies that are presented by self interested conglomerates with funding going to EU for preferred status. Funding has gone to China steel industry to aid holding down prices at the expense of our industry.TTIP is a US trade deal being negotiated with EU to give trading & tender advantages for US companies over home businesses & latest is the desire to privatise all European railways on UK model This demos some of the madness but hey ho we each have a right to make their own mind up.Enjoy it while you can because it will all be decided by Johnny Foreigner soon enough if we stay in EU!

TTIP for the UK is more likely, not less, if we leave the EU. (It may have a different name, but the same Ts & Cs). Our governing politicians aren't as fussy. And the real worry isn't about enabling US companies to sell their products to us for less (because they have economy of scale) but because they find it more profitable to use materials in their products that the EU has banned as being dangerous to us and TTIP may well permit corporations to sue governments for loss of profits if legislation bans those products or materials in the future.

Even if the "Leave" campaign wins the vote, the UK (minus Scotland, I guess) will still have the important issues decided by "Johnny Foreigner", as that is who our major (and larger) trading partners will be. They will tell us what we have to do in order to sell to them. Smaller countries may not. See? That's the benefit of size for you... Bigger organisations have more say than smaller ones.

Of course this is only my opinion based on my own delusion. Other people are just as entitled to theirs.

 

[vblockiain]

TTIP for the UK is more likely, not less, if we leave the EU. (It may have a different name, but the same Ts & Cs). Our governing politicians aren't as fussy. And the real worry isn't about enabling US companies to sell their products to us for less (because they have economy of scale) but because they find it more profitable to use materials in their products that the EU has banned as being dangerous to us and TTIP may well permit corporations to sue governments for loss of profits if legislation bans those products or materials in the future.

Even if the "Leave" campaign wins the vote, the UK (minus Scotland, I guess) will still have the important issues decided by "Johnny Foreigner", as that is who our major (and larger) trading partners will be. They will tell us what we have to do in order to sell to them. Smaller countries may not. See? That's the benefit of size for you... Bigger organisations have more say than smaller ones.

Of course this is only my opinion based on my own delusion. Other people are just as entitled to theirs.

Maybe deluded but thinking it through.Can't stand the i'm just frightened so stay with the status quo brigade.As i said earlier emotive terms have a greater impact than facts on the end result because emotion is the biggest influence on decision making.Fear is a stay decision but not as powerful as the desire to change you need committment for that emotion becaus you are potentially changing you comfort zone .Pompous arse aren't i but its good fun.

 

[colognehornet]

Somewhat ironic that immigration should loom so large in this debate. In the 1990's Britain was in the forefront of EU. members which wanted Rumania, Bulgaria, Poland etc. admitted to the EU. it was also the first country to allow unrestricted immigration from those countries at that time - whereas Germany delayed similar access for many years - so the fact that there are so many East Europeans now in the UK. cannot be blamed fully on the EU. The other thing that annoys me is the argument that Britain is having to kowtow to laws made in Brussels whereas, in fact, Britain is represented in Brussels and voted for 90% of those laws (a higher percentage than that achieved by most other countries). For me Brexit will mean years of uncertainty, loss of investment (not to mention also EU. research money in our Universities) and a long period of having to strike individual deals with individual countries in order to achieve the same free trade flow which we enjoy now. Can you imagine a moron like Bojo having to strike trade deals with partners who he has already likened to Hitler for God's sake. It must surely register, even with the illiterate, that the only head of state actually in favour of Brexit is Putin. It is not the nature of the British to run, to say 'you won't give us the ball so we're not playing any more' we are the second largest economy within the EU. and the third largest payers in, and are fully capable of helping to change this organization from within - so the idea that we are being dictated to by are European masters is, quite simply, ludicrous. I have many more fears for loss of sovereignty if Britain leaves the EU. they would have to accept TTIP. without any protections, and would have nothing like the same bargaining position which they have now.

 

[rangercol]

Col, just on a point of fact, the EU pays the IMF less than €200k for the various reports etc it produces. In context, six weeks of work from one of the major management consultancies costs at least $600k. The real funding for the IMF comes from individual countries, with the U.K. giving £19 billion in the most recent figures I can find. This money is then held to support economies in trouble, usually under pretty stringent terms (ask the Greeks). Whether or not it's a good organisation, has a good track record, is a force for good etc is another argument. Unlike the major management consultancies, which I know from long and bitter experience, are **** 90% of the time.

name me an economist who gets it right the majority of the time.

Don't you dare dilute my arguments with things like facts.

 

[vblockiain]

Don't you dare dilute my arguments with things like facts.

have i started something

 

[TheBigDipper]

Somewhat ironic that immigration should loom so large in this debate. In the 1990's Britain was in the forefront of EU. members which wanted Rumania, Bulgaria, Poland etc. admitted to the EU. it was also the first country to allow unrestricted immigration from those countries at that time - whereas Germany delayed similar access for many years - so the fact that there are so many East Europeans now in the UK. cannot be blamed fully on the EU. The other thing that annoys me is the argument that Britain is having to kowtow to laws made in Brussels whereas, in fact, Britain is represented in Brussels and voted for 90% of those laws (a higher percentage than that achieved by most other countries). For me Brexit will mean years of uncertainty, loss of investment (not to mention also EU. research money in our Universities) and a long period of having to strike individual deals with individual countries in order to achieve the same free trade flow which we enjoy now. Can you imagine a moron like Bojo having to strike trade deals with partners who he has already likened to Hitler for God's sake. It must surely register, even with the illiterate, that the only head of state actually in favour of Brexit is Putin. It is not the nature of the British to run, to say 'you won't give us the ball so we're not playing any more' we are the second largest economy within the EU. and the third largest payers in, and are fully capable of helping to change this organization from within - so the idea that we are being dictated to by are European masters is, quite simply, ludicrous. I have many more fears for loss of sovereignty if Britain leaves the EU. they would have to accept TTIP. without any protections, and would have nothing like the same bargaining position which they have now.

This.

 

[rangercol]

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!

Will you join in our crusade, who will be strong and stand with me, beyond the barricade is there a world you long to see? Then join in the fight that will give you the right to be free.

 

[rangercol]

If you listen carefully to that idiot Boris and IDS They are Europeans and want to be a part of Europe but they want a better deal... They are banking on using you and me as pawns that if we come out we can fight for a better deal and they want to rejoin the EU in a couple of years if they manage a better deal....they wont accept that this cant happen even after being told by Brussels that if we vote out we are out for good and no turning back as we will have made our bed and now we must lie in it. So dont be fooled into thinking Boris who has a house and family living in Europe dont want to be part of the EU because he is more European than most people. Ok he admitted that coming out benefits the rich off the backs of the rest of us and he knows jobs will be lost but he has it in his own tiny mind that we can get a better deal with the EU if we are on the outside.......He is gambling with peoples lives while no risk to his own as its a price worth paying. He wont accept that we cant rejoin and he could not care less about how the peoples lives will change for the worst........Well sorry but i wont take a gamble with my families future on a hunch we can get a better deal outside the EU and would be more comfortable of fighting for a better deal inside the EU and besides we have done much better than most of our partners anyway......Vote out = certain Job losses and poverty and that is not a price worth paying.....for anyone

Poverty?

More project fear.

 

[sb_73]

have i started something

Now our Modus (modi?) Operandi are public it's rather taken the fun out of it.

If you listen carefully to that idiot Boris and IDS They are Europeans and want to be a part of Europe but they want a better deal... They are banking on using you and me as pawns that if we come out we can fight for a better deal and they want to rejoin the EU in a couple of years if they manage a better deal....they wont accept that this cant happen even after being told by Brussels that if we vote out we are out for good and no turning back as we will have made our bed and now we must lie in it. So dont be fooled into thinking Boris who has a house and family living in Europe dont want to be part of the EU because he is more European than most people. Ok he admitted that coming out benefits the rich off the backs of the rest of us and he knows jobs will be lost but he has it in his own tiny mind that we can get a better deal with the EU if we are on the outside.......He is gambling with peoples lives while no risk to his own as its a price worth paying. He wont accept that we cant rejoin and he could not care less about how the peoples lives will change for the worst........Well sorry but i wont take a gamble with my families future on a hunch we can get a better deal outside the EU and would be more comfortable of fighting for a better deal inside the EU and besides we have done much better than most of our partners anyway......Vote out = certain Job losses and poverty and that is not a price worth paying.....for anyone

Even as someone who is likely to vote remain your last sentence hurls me into despair. There is no certainty, but this continual negative talking up of economic problems should we vote leave is doing more damage than the odious Johnson. It'll turn into a self fulfilling prophecy when it doesn't need to - even Cameron said we would have a decent future outside the EU, though he seems to have forgotten that.

Stand out moments of **** for me today:
Cameron bringing Putin and ISIS as Brexiters into it
Johnson (if I heard correctly, my jaw hit the floor rather heavily) claiming that we could have free trade with Europe with no regulations. Beg pardon?
Farage, just as I was beginning to think he was the turd which floats to the top, asserting that a 52-48 win for Remain would mandate a second referendum and a 66% pro stay vote would be required for this to go away. Then scaremongering about violence on the streets due to EU migration.

Just waiting for Tyson Fury and Terry ****witt to have their say.

 

[cor blymie]

riot in Wandsworth prison, Albanians involved. Vote In and get plenty of the same

 

[colognehornet]

riot in Wandsworth prison, Albanians involved. Vote In and get plenty of the same

Albania are not in the EU.