Off Topic The Politics Thread

For what it's worth, I was totally undecided....and was erring on the side of 'stay'.

I'm now firmly 'out'. Why ??

Can't really say for sure but, from what I've read we seem to put more in than we get out, hate the way the 'stay' side try to badger and bully us that doom is around the corner if we leave, and I watched a video showing one of my 'respected men', Tony Benn, argue quite rightly, in my opinion, that the EU is undemocratic.
Must also add, seeing Michael O'Leary, head of Ryanair, implore people to vote 'stay', truly didn't do their cause any favours.

Might be **** reasons but there you go. Anyone here think they can convince me otherwise ?

 

I think there are many of us who are confused and undecided mate...and it's us who might swing this one way or the other.

 

If you care about the future of your family then there is only one option and that is to remain in.......To leave the EU now will be the biggest mistake we will ever do. Boris and grove and IDS have admitted that jobs will be lost and prices of absolutely will rise including mortgages and interest rates will go through the roof. The £ is already losing its value in anticipating of leaving the EU. Just look around where you live and count how many businesses are being topped up and funded by the EU and if that stops millions of workers will be directly and indirectly effected......Now the top international monetary fund has just announced that The UK face very serious consequences if we leave as they the IMF who gauge all trade all over the world has indicated that the UK has already had millions of pounds of trade put on hold by other countries.....I voted not to join the common market all those years ago be cause we were a thriving country where we had many industries employing millions of people i thought it would be a bad move but we joined.....So for 40 odd years we have been in it the Tories destroyed or privatized anything and everything that we are not and never will be self sufficient again as it's all gone.......We benefit by being in the EU now and for every pound we put in we get £10 worth of trade through the free market and if that stops then it will cost us just as much money to do trade with anyone as it wont be free anymore......Boris and the rest have said that coming out do benefit the rich over the rest but they say its a price worth paying.....WHAT! Yes for you multi millionaires maybe... Taxes will have to rise as there will be less people working and those who are lucky enough to work will lose all their workers rights that the EU makes sure we get. So if you don't quite understand what coming out of the EU really means and how it will effect you and your families future then for gods sake find out and don't be conned by Boris (he who will do anything to be prime minister) and IDS who not long ago said a family with 2 children should be able to live on £50 / week........Are you really going to listen to these idiots who want out for their own interests at the cost of you and me......Vote to stay in and be safe and know where you are....

 

It's good to see people actually trying to weigh this up. There are definitely pros and cons and it's a grey area decision, unless you have a firm point of principle (or even conscience) to pivot from, like Col. And I'm increasingly of the opinion that principle is probably the best reason to decide. For me that's between whether you believe Brexit will give the UK more 'sovereignty' and control (and by extension make UK citizens' lives better) - a belief shared by both the more 'patriotic' tendency and the hard left which is why you get Galloway (please don't take your line from him of all people) and Farage in the same camp. Or whether you believe that globalisation, blurring of national boundaries and explicit and deep collaboration and cooperation between democracies is not only inevitable but desirable. Which is where I sit. My problem is that the EU is a pretty crappy example of this in action, but hey, it's what we are voting on. I will try and put a better case on this later on. I also find it impossible to vote for something that both Johnson (a complete disgrace, I can only hope that his behaviour has given people the chance to see through his 'genial buffer' front) and Galloway want. The Brexiter who has impressed me most, when you get him in a calm environment and off the soundbite stump, is, unbelievably, Farage. I always knew he (like Galloway) is a very skilful debater, but when he is not playing up, talking over people and oversimplifying he can present a balanced argument.

What has pissed me off is the quality of the debate and the extreme scaremongering and characterisation taken by both sides, which is why I have bored everyone with pedantic and hectoring posts on what the leaders of the campaigns have been saying. I haven't commented on the movie because I haven't watched it, as you know I am managing my blood pressure and I feared an hour and ten minutes of fury inducing propaganda. I'll try later*. I think Chaz has retired hurt from this thread.

One thing I will say is that if immigration is the biggest, or a big, issue for you, Brexit is the only option - it offers no guarantees of noticeable change but is the only position that can offer it.

* I watched the first thirty seconds, the tone 'rallying cry' 'fight for our destiny' 'we are being bullied and cajoled' was enough for me. May well include some strong Brexit arguments but when you present your case like that it just alienates me.

 

The IMF are EU funded and have a track record of getting almost all predictions wrong. They recommended that we should join the Euro.
There is no evidence that workers rights will suddenly be rescinded if we leave.
We will still be able to trade with the other EU countries and they certainly need us.
You don't want to trust what Boris and Gove say, but you do trust what Cameron and Osborne say. Interesting.

 

Frightened by the Remainer bullshit eh What has Eu & its policy to fund Steel industry done to your countrymen .I can understand the margins of UK wanting to stay in because of bribe funds given to The Extremities by EU but ask the Cornish fishing industry what it thinks it has been cut to bits lost its fishing rights & quotas & received Funding it can only use on EU decided projects aimed to pacify the locals & further weaken local industry.Same is happening in Wales, NE,N Ireland & Scotland.The naive will always believe PR hype but look inside the motivation then decide .We need to control our own destiny & natural resources/skills /talents

 

UUnfortunately I fear that too many people are going to vote remain through fear of change.
Thing is, a remain vote isn't a vote for no change.
It will be taken by our EU masters as support for their plans for a federal state of Europe.

 

Col, just on a point of fact, the EU pays the IMF less than €200k for the various reports etc it produces. In context, six weeks of work from one of the major management consultancies costs at least $600k. The real funding for the IMF comes from individual countries, with the U.K. giving £19 billion in the most recent figures I can find. This money is then held to support economies in trouble, usually under pretty stringent terms (ask the Greeks). Whether or not it's a good organisation, has a good track record, is a force for good etc is another argument. Unlike the major management consultancies, which I know from long and bitter experience, are **** 90% of the time.

name me an economist who gets it right the majority of the time.

 

I believe that many are too frightened to step outside the issues & review in down to earth terms what the EU means & does in day to day home budget /household income terms .If they did no one would be IN how can you personally justify that your income would have to be spent in the company shop & your employer would tell you what you want to do to improve your home .This economic System ended with the Repeal of Truck Acts & amendments during 18th &19 th centuries but EU has revived it as part of the 4th Reich development process to control & subjugate EU member states & populations in favour of a growing wealth amongst those involved in the inner circles of Commissioners ,Commissions & Trade clubs. It is just jobs for the boys not the boyos

 

As an 'undecided, the real credit to this message board, is that I have gauged more reasoned debate and opinions on here and gained more knowledge through fellow posters, than I have through our so called leaders (on both sides) with their scare tactics.

Thanks everyone

 

Bravo, '4th reich' that's so helpful. Who exactly is forcing you personally to spend your income in designated places? Last sentence is paranoia personified, you've been eating too much cheese mate. If you really believe that you don't need a vote, you need a gun.

 

People should ignore the personalities and vote on whether leaving will improve the quality of life for them and their families. If in doubt vote Remain - we can always leave at a later date, but can never re-join on the same terms.

 

But is it not a possibility, so I'm led to believe that if we did vote to leave, then Europe could possibly come back and ask us to stay on much better terms that what we are on now ?
Genuine question

 

That is the Boris position. But we would then need a second referendum to overturn the result of the first, and there is no guarantee that would happen. How could Boris, Gove etc advocate a 'new deal' if they really believe some of the stuff they have been saying about democracy and sovereignty? Not that actually believing anything makes any difference to them and their careers. It's just like Cameron saying a few months ago that the UK would survive perfectly well outside the EU even though he would prefer to stay in, whereas now he claims Brexit would lead to Armageddon.

I also get the strong sense that Europe will just say 'OK, you've made your choice. It's a shame but we have others things to think about'.

Heard an interesting statistic on the radio this morning. Apparently 37% of us are satisfied that we benefit personally from the EU. The figures in France and Germany are much lower - only 30% in Germany.

 

no need to apologize, it's a healthy debate. I hope I don't come over too forceful. I passionately believe the longer we have mass immigration the sooner we'll have major problems

 

Try reading first it is obvious you scan read. I like you personal belief in you intellectualism but much of what you say is questionable.Y
ou have a right to your opinion as have i .Any attempt to demean my comment i find to be amusing But irrelevant in the flow of my personal take on the EU & the control mechanisms in the hands on non elected & in many cases unqualified Commissioners

 

And that's a valid point to make, I just didn't think Lyme was an especially good example of its impact. Boston is a good one, where migrants have made the town much richer, but also changed its character massively and brought accompanying tension. Probably we are experiencing what the Celts did when the Anglo Saxons turned up.

I have tried reading it, it's more confusing the second and third times. I must have missed your point on where we are allowed to spend money. If you use terms like 'subjugate populations' and 'Fourth Reich' you must expect a reaction. Of course everybody has a right to an opinion, just as everyone has a right to challenge an opinion. My response was probably too much, sorry, but I was responding to what you wrote, not trying to demean you.

You are right, a lot of what I write is questionable, I am constantly amazed that it's not picked up on more often.

Commissioners are non elected, but they are appointed by elected governments. Everything they propose has to be passed by the elected EU Parliament and the EU Council of Ministers, consisting of elected ministers from each national government. It's cumbersome and bureaucratic, and above all it feels distant, but it has plenty of checks and balances. And why does electing people make them qualified or competent? Just look at our own government, which, incidentally, includes 25 ministers who are unelected members of the House of Lords.

If the EU was made more transparently democratic would you be voting Remain?

 

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!