Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

Good post.

On security, I would rather take the opinion of the ex head of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove than ANY politician. He has clearly stated that it is his opinion that the UK would be safer from terrorism (whilst conceding that no one can stop all attacks) by leaving the EU.
This, along with the Sovereignty issue are the two main reasons I have to leave. Immigration is next on my list. All three are massive wins for Brexit imo, but I agree with Ubes in that, on the day, I believe the British public will vote to remain, fearing the unknown.
A huge mistake imo.
With the entire establishment backing remain and two faced Cameron determined to protect his legacy, I don't think the Brexit camp will be able to turn the tide.

I've looked up Dearlove's comments, which were balanced by the opposite view from the ex head of GCHQ and current head of Europol. I honestly can't see a decisive win for either side on security, I don't think the EU in itself has a major role in who we share intelligence with, which is the big issue as far as I can see. Prevention of terrorists or potential terrorists entering the UK would be dealt with under the immigration issue.

I've also only just realised that some of the stuff sometimes raised, about prisoners voting etc, has nothing to do with the EU, it's the Council of Europe, which has the Euroean Convention on Human Rights and Court of Human Rights in its ambit. Easy to confuse with the EU as they share the same flag (the Council had it first! We were founder members in 1947), but different it has 47 members including all the EU members. Given that full members include Russia and Turkey it's obviously not a very effective organisation.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I was pretty neutral to fracking, this this has made me rethink a bit

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I have no idea whether this is the case with the clip you've posted, but I am given to understand that some of the clips posted onto YouTube, such as American hillbillies turning on their 'faucets' only to see them become Bunsen burners, are largely faked by the anti-fracking lobby.

A practical way to establish whether hydraulic fracturing really does contaminate the water table and so forth would be legislation requiring oil companies to use tracers in their frack fluids

 

[sb_73]

I have no idea whether this is the case with the clip you've posted, but I am given to understand that some of the clips posted onto YouTube, such as American hillbillies turning on their 'faucets' only to see them become Bunsen burners, are largely faked by the anti-fracking lobby.

A practical way to establish whether hydraulic fracturing really does contaminate the water table and so forth would be legislation requiring oil companies to use tracers in their frack fluids

That sounds very sensible. The clip was on the BBC news website, allegedly an Aussie MP setting the river on fire. Couldn't copy that so tracked it down on YouTube. The little I know of fracking technology (blasting loads of water into the earth?) would lead me to guess that contamination might be a risk, but if anybody can reassure me that it's all ok, great. Not in my back garden, obviously.

 

[Sooperhoop]

So you could catch freshly cooked fish? Might catch on...

 

[sb_73]

Ian Duncan Smith wastes an interview with the Sunday Times slagging off Cameron and Osborne (explicitly calling them liars) rather than making any case for Brexit.

I think I have said this before, but this is the most pathetic, shameful political campaign from both sides in my lifetime. As far as I can remember. A very important decision reduced to lies and bitching. Whether we stay in or go out it does not augur well for the political leadership of this country.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Ian Duncan Smith wastes an interview with the Sunday Times slagging off Cameron and Osborne (explicitly calling them liars) rather than making any case for Brexit.

I think I have said this before, but this is the most pathetic, shameful political campaign from both sides in my lifetime. As far as I can remember. A very important decision reduced to lies and bitching. Whether we stay in or go out it does not augur well for the political leadership of this country.

There are going to be major ructions in the Tory Party. There are deep seated resentments that Cameron and Osbourne have brought in the establishment, including international establishment figures, to influence the vote by warnings and fear. If there's a close Remain result, I just don't see how there will be a reconciliation. There could be split towards UKIP, although I can't see Tory MP's serving under Farage, so UKIP policymakers' loyalty to Nigel will be severely tested. It's possible he'll be swept aside

 

[Stroller]

There are going to be major ructions in the Tory Party. There are deep seated resentments that Cameron and Osbourne have brought in the establishment, including international establishment figures, to influence the vote by warnings and fear. If there's a close Remain result, I just don't see how there will be a reconciliation. There could be split towards UKIP, although I can't see Tory MP's serving under Farage, so UKIP policymakers' loyalty to Nigel will be severely tested. It's possible he'll be swept aside

That all sounds good.

 

[sb_73]

There are going to be major ructions in the Tory Party. There are deep seated resentments that Cameron and Osbourne have brought in the establishment, including international establishment figures, to influence the vote by warnings and fear. If there's a close Remain result, I just don't see how there will be a reconciliation. There could be split towards UKIP, although I can't see Tory MP's serving under Farage, so UKIP policymakers' loyalty to Nigel will be severely tested. It's possible he'll be swept aside

The concept of true Conservatives upset about 'the establishment' is rather amusing. The establishment against them on one side, the liberal elite lining up on the other, poor defenceless things, no wonder they are lashing out blindly and repetitively. I can see the Remain camp being defeated with slightly better grace than the Brexit leaders, who have shown no grace, dignity, or style at all so far. As his family have told him, this could all end very badly for Johnson, which would be delightful.

 

[Stroller]

The concept of true Conservatives upset about 'the establishment' is rather amusing. The establishment against them on one side, the liberal elite lining up on the other, poor defenceless things, no wonder they are lashing out blindly and repetitively. I can see the Remain camp being defeated with slightly better grace than the Brexit leaders, who have shown no grace, dignity, or style at all so far. As his family have told him, this could all end very badly for Johnson, which would be delightful.

Johnson is exposing himself as the deeply unpleasant character he really is - the 'part-Kenyan' digs at Obama were shameful. The good thing about it is that the 'funtime Boris' act will no longer hold water.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Johnson is exposing himself as the deeply unpleasant character he really is - the 'part-Kenyan' digs at Obama were shameful. The good thing about it is that the 'funtime Boris' act will no longer hold water.

To think that the likes of Boris Johnson received the most expensive education money could buy in this country, yet has the tactical nous and political cunning of a black shirt bully boy. For somebody firmly in the Out camp, I don't want idiots like Johnson representing me. His stupid tousled blonde Worzel Gummidge hair and bumbling persona have long since become nothing more than embarrassing gimmicks. I hope only a few remain fooled into adoring this 'character'.

 

[sb_73]

Some interesting stuff in the news/ on the radio this morning. In a rather convoluted argument Brexit campaign claiming that EU rules mean that Theresa May cannot prevent crypto facist and anti EU Frenchwoman Marine Le Pen coming to the UK to speak. I wonder if they realise that they share a stance with the 'no platform' students' unions? Of course she should be allowed to speak, so we can mock her.

More interestingly a good Reunion programme on Maastricht with Bill Cash, Norman Lamont, Ken Clarke, David Davies and John Majors civil servant. No nastiness (though I didn't hear all of it) and some interesting points made in amongst the minutiae of Tory party in fighting. One, raised by the civil servant, was the geopolitical situation at the time - the reunification of Germany (opposed by France and Thatcher) which then needed to be tied in to the European economy in case it drifted off to the east, and the newly liberated countries of Eastern Europe which could have ended up bizarre dictatorships like Belarus had not the EU expanded to take them in. And Davies made an interesting point that our 150 years of liberal democracy made gave us a different perspective to countries (and there are a lot of them) who have only relatively recently emerged from dictatorships and authoritarian regimes, especially about 'surrendering powers' .

Finally an excellent interview with Trevor Phillips on how he changed his mind about multiculturalism. Excellent, and I always like hearing from people big enough to explain how they got it wrong.

For the record I have been wrong about many things, though I have forgotten them all.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

That sounds very sensible. The clip was on the BBC news website, allegedly an Aussie MP setting the river on fire. Couldn't copy that so tracked it down on YouTube. The little I know of fracking technology (blasting loads of water into the earth?) would lead me to guess that contamination might be a risk, but if anybody can reassure me that it's all ok, great. Not in my back garden, obviously.

The problem is that conventional hydrocarbon reservoirs are depleting, alternative energy sources remain insufficient to meet global demands, so oil and gas has to be extracted from either deeper subsea structures or unconventionals such as shale or tar sands. I have no idea whether fracking is 100% environmentally sound - in fact, I'd be surprised if it was so - but I am convinced that it is necessary. It's all very well opposing fracking, but suspect feelings may well change should the lights start going out, which might not be that far away without these new (and improving) technologies.

Ideally, not in my garden either.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Lots of oil in whales
If we kill enough of then that could take care of the sea level rise as well
Could even eat the meat
Think of the employment gains for unemployed fisherman
Could even be some good scientific research as well
The possibility s with whales could be vast
I could be onto something here
Surprised nobody has thought of it before

 

[sb_73]

The problem is that conventional hydrocarbon reservoirs are depleting, alternative energy sources remain insufficient to meet global demands, so oil and gas has to be extracted from either deeper subsea structures or unconventionals such as shale or tar sands. I have no idea whether fracking is 100% environmentally sound - in fact, I'd be surprised if it was so - but I am convinced that it is necessary. It's all very well opposing fracking, but suspect feelings may well change should the lights start going out, which might not be that far away without these new (and improving) technologies.

Ideally, not in my garden either.

I am a scientific and technological numbskull, but I am disappointed that we still seem to be concentrating on finite sources of energy like oil and gas of whatever type, rather than the infinite sources offered by the sun, wind and tides. I've no problem with nuclear energy either to be honest, apart from the insane amounts of money it seems to take to get it. We don't seem to have made much progress in these areas for a long time, but perhaps a lot is going on in the background I don't know about. Designing batteries that can store what is generated so we can use it when we need it seems pretty key, likewise better batteries for electric cars.

Can you power cars with shale gas?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I am a scientific and technological numbskull, but I am disappointed that we still seem to be concentrating on finite sources of energy like oil and gas of whatever type, rather than the infinite sources offered by the sun, wind and tides. I've no problem with nuclear energy either to be honest, apart from the insane amounts of money it seems to take to get it. We don't seem to have made much progress in these areas for a long time, but perhaps a lot is going on in the background I don't know about. Designing batteries that can store what is generated so we can use it when we need it seems pretty key, likewise better batteries for electric cars.

Can you power cars with shale gas?

Yes, you can power vehicles with shale gas.

I think we'd all love to be in a place where the sun, wind & tide meets all our energy needs. It's just that we ain't there and aren't likely to be there anytime soon.

The good news is that if we all give it another 100 million years or so, we can all personally do our bit to renew the earth's hydrocarbon resources.

 

[sb_73]

Yes, you can power vehicles with shale gas.

I think we'd all love to be in a place where the sun, wind & tide meets all our energy needs. It's just that we ain't there and aren't likely to be there anytime soon.

The good news is that if we all give it another 100 million years or so, we can all personally do our bit to renew the earth's hydrocarbon resources.

I would cover every hot desert in the world with solar panels on the grounds that deserts are ****, guard them from terrorists with the SAS, the Household Cavalry, the Bolivian Home Guard and the Bhutanese navy; and give free energy to the locals so they can build their own economies and not want to live in Goldies garden. By the time we have finished covering the deserts the technology will have improved and we can start again at the other end, an endless boost to multiple economies.

In the meantime I will continue to exceed my daily methane producing quota.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I would cover every hot desert in the world with solar panels on the grounds that deserts are ****, guard them from terrorists with the SAS, the Household Cavalry, the Bolivian Home Guard and the Bhutanese navy; and give free energy to the locals so they can build their own economies and not want to live in Goldies garden. By the time we have finished covering the deserts the technology will have improved and we can start again at the other end, an endless boost to multiple economies.

In the meantime I will continue to exceed my daily methane producing quota.

Good sense!

 

[Chaz]

I'm surprised Chaz hasn't withdrawn his scurrilous accusation of tax evasion against the leader of Her Majesty's opposition.

If I did what Corbyn did (failed to declare taxable income on a tax return) it would be classed as tax evasion. I don't see why someone in his position should be treated any different. Sure it's fixed now, but failure to declare income for tax purposes is evasion - whatever the reason for it, including ignorance of the law, which is what Corbyn blamed the omission on - and so I don't feel there's anything 'scurrilous' about what I said at all...

 

[Stroller]

If I did what Corbyn did (failed to declare taxable income on a tax return) it would be classed as tax evasion. I don't see why someone in his position should be treated any different. Sure it's fixed now, but failure to declare income for tax purposes is evasion - whatever the reason for it, including ignorance of the law, which is what Corbyn blamed the omission on - and so I don't feel there's anything 'scurrilous' about what I said at all...

Don't be daft Chaz. He omitted some pension income that he'd already paid tax on. There was no evasion, in fact he overpaid tax.

 

[sb_73]

I've also only just realised that some of the stuff sometimes raised, about prisoners voting etc, has nothing to do with the EU, it's the Council of Europe, which has the Euroean Convention on Human Rights and Court of Human Rights in its ambit. Easy to confuse with the EU as they share the same flag (the Council had it first! We were founder members in 1947), but different it has 47 members including all the EU members. Given that full members include Russia and Turkey it's obviously not a very effective organisation.

Theresa May reads this forum, now calling for us to leave the ECHR.

Here's what Captain Jean Luc Picard, or is it Professor Xavier, thinks about that idea

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