Off Topic The Politics Thread

I can't tell anything, you know that!

(I bet there was a little bit of 'many a true word...' in there, though )

 

To think we are kowtowing to a country that could have Donald Trump as President. I wonder if our military will be 'back of the queue' when that clowns foreign policy goes belly up[/QUOTE]

 

Paul, ignoring your usual lecturing, you have clearly misunderstood what I meant.
The farmers who produce milk, meat etc are completely screwed down on price by the big supermarkets. Many dairy farmers struggle to make a profit.
The problem is that we the consumers have got used to cheap milk in particular and wouldn't want the price to go up. This is the excuse that the huge corporations make, but they could help the farmers a lot more if they wanted to.

 

I agree. Put 20p on a pint of milk, however, and we'd hardly notice it, but would make a colossal difference to the farmer. I think the supermarkets have to take a share of the responsibility here, as their competition on price with their rivals takes on some of the characteristics of a cartel when it comes to purchasing policies.

 

With regards to the forthcoming referendum, I reckon those that were always pro- or anti-EU will only be galvanised in their positions by any contribution made by the likes of Barry O'Bammer. I suspect a majority of genuinely undecideds will ultimately vote to stay in the EU on the grounds of better the devil you know.

Question: has anybody on here genuinely had their position changed from in to out, or out to in, on the strength of the arguments made here, or comments made by politicians, captains of industry or Noel Edmonds?

 

Someone who actually is American or studied this may well correct me, but I am under the impression that the USA (United STATES of America) is actually a Federal organisation with 50 states or commonwealths within it, each acting as its own country, with its own laws, taxes and organisation, who are part of a Federation. In effect, it is a 50 country equivalent of a Federal EU.

The USA isn't a state, it's a collection of 50 states.

 

Not yet, but I have a better appreciation and understanding of some peoples views than I used to have as a result of everyone posting.

 

Good question Ubes.

Personally, I was much more open to persuasion by the out team at the beginning of this campaign than I am now, even though in principle I would always be in favour of a better version of the EU, I have always had doubts whether the UK (or probably England) is a good fit for it. My 'remain' position probably comes over much more strongly on here than in real life, and that is entirely due to the way the Brexit leaders (and some posters on here), who I really do detest, individually and collectively (the Brexit leaders, not the posters) have presented their case rather than being convinced by the 'remain' mob, who have been pathetic, characterised by Cameron being able to say 6 months ago that the UK would be perfectly fine outside the EU whereas now it would be the end of the world. Both sides have engaged in exaggeration (if not downright lying) to make their case, the only major difference in my eyes being the bile and personal attacks used by the Brexiters, to which Remain have largely not responded, and I freely confess to rebalancing this on here, to the irritation of many. Sorry (which doesn't mean I will stop, I'm afraid).

It seems to me that there are 4 main areas which have been the focus of the debate:

- economy - I think the Remain side shade this, simply because of uncertainty and the impossibility of predicting the future. I don't trust any of the numbers being thrown around, but I do believe that negotiating trade deals with multiple partners will be a very long and complicated process.
- security - frankly based on what I have heard I have no idea whether we are more or less safe in or out. I don't think it will make a major difference, but I don't know. The security of our borders is more down to our competence in managing them than anything else, probably.
- immigration - win for the Brexiters, but they are not making enough of it
- sovereignty - if it's important to you (not to me) a crushing win for Brexit, though they also need to state their case on other areas of pooled sovereignty like NATO, the UN, the Commonwealth.

I would like to hear (reasoned) arguments from the Brexit campaign on the general problems/issues with the EU, structurally and politically, which will never be fixed and why, rather than just relating everything to UK national interest. I would also like them to make clear how they will respond to an 'in' vote, and what they see as the way forward in terms of UK government in the event of Brexit, given that only UKIP has this as party policy and will not be a part of any government.

From the Remain team I would like to hear how we will drive further essential reform in the EU if we stay, from what will be the periphery in the context of the Cameron and already existing 'concessions', and (sorry for using this word), the 'vision' for both the future of the EU and the U.K. within it. And how they will respond to a Brexit vote, given that they will dominate the government (though expect Theresa May and others to come out as secret Brexiters at this point).

The are pros and cons to all these arguments and I would like both sides to admit that and have a more nuanced debate, but that is very naive of me.

 

I listened to Obama, and changed my position from out, to further out. Don't know if that counts

 

A little, maybe.

I wonder if the polls might be underestimating the Remain vote in a similar way to how they understated Tory support at the general election. It seems to me that Brexiters are far readier to make their opinions known than are those on the other side. The vote on here might be representative - a solid majority for Remain, but you wouldn't think it from reading the posts.

 

I suspect you might be proven right, Strolls. I think the 'better the devil you know' vote will carry the day. It is my opinion that a significant proportion of the British people don't like change that much, so will not be prepared to leap into the relative unknown of a Brexit.

 

As things stand I think you are right. But on reflection I suspect the Brexit campaign may be keeping their powder dry on immigration, saving it for the last 10 days, because it's a very difficult one for the Remain camp to counter without getting into complicated arguments about the economic benefits which won't resonate. Might make a late difference.

'Dog whistle racism' now there's a term I've had to look up.

 

Is it like Catflap Marxism (which I've just made up)?

 

Good post.

On security, I would rather take the opinion of the ex head of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove than ANY politician. He has clearly stated that it is his opinion that the UK would be safer from terrorism (whilst conceding that no one can stop all attacks) by leaving the EU.
This, along with the Sovereignty issue are the two main reasons I have to leave. Immigration is next on my list. All three are massive wins for Brexit imo, but I agree with Ubes in that, on the day, I believe the British public will vote to remain, fearing the unknown.
A huge mistake imo.
With the entire establishment backing remain and two faced Cameron determined to protect his legacy, I don't think the Brexit camp will be able to turn the tide.

 

We don't hear much about it over here, but the Affordable Care Act, aka ObamaCare, is a revolution for US healthcare, particularly for the 44 million uninsured US citizens, offering them what it says and protection from being ripped off by the insurance companies. Who have reacted by finding other ways to rip off their slightly better off customers.

 

What is Noel Edmonds view
Will staying in or leaving be best for blobby kworld
Knobby knobby knobby

With a few stronger EU safety rules he might have avoided killing one of his viewers

 

I believe the diminutive one from Crinkly Bottom pulled his head out of Mr Blobby's arse long enough to suggest that Britain is crowded, then pushed it firmly back up again.

 

You're right, I recall the difficulties he had with this early on, but I wasn't aware that he had finally got it through. Quite an achievement

 

I was pretty neutral to fracking, this this has made me rethink a bit