Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.

Simon Sweeney

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York

Yeah but immigrants, despite there being approx. 2.3 mill people from the UK 'ex pats ;) sunning themselves around Europe. Also don't like some blokes in Europe who I have no affiliation with making up the rules, I would prefer some blokes in London who I have no affiliation with do that instead!
 
apparently the immigration figures have been fiddled. If they went on the number of NI nos. issued the true figure should be more than doubled. No wonder you can't move on the tube 24/7
 
The thing is, with this you'd have double the size of the current parliament. 650 selected via PR and 650 local. I don't think that the population will be able to accept the additional cost of Government.

However, what you are effectively advocating is that the current houses switch. You'll have centrally selected people that you didn't vote for deciding on the law, but who will surely get reselected after each election, with one or two changes based on vote swing affecting he numbers for each party. All PR gives you is a say in where the party lines are redrawn every five years. Then you'll have a body of elected members who act as a check, but who in practice (unlike the Lords today) will most likely always vote along party lines. The second house will either rubber-stamp everything or block everything depending on which of the two main parties hold power, making either themselves or the whole establishment ineffective and unnecessary.

Currently we have Elected house passing laws for scrutiny by the Unelected house. The system you advocate above would really switch that, so the Unelected people make the law, and the Elected people act as the check.

Well, actually, I'm not saying any of that, Chaz. You are, by putting words into my mouth. I was just answering a question asked by Watford.

All I know is, if we were starting our country off now, from scratch, we probably wouldn't be basing our government elections on a semi-feudal system of sending a local representative by coach and horses to Parliament. We'd try and find something a little better - even if it wasn't perfect - just better. Just because we've always done it this way doesn't make it right, and the drop-off in voting numbers seems to support that. People don't vote because they don't think their vote can make a difference. We all deserve a system where it does.
 
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apparently the immigration figures have been fiddled. If they went on the number of NI nos. issued the true figure should be more than doubled. No wonder you can't move on the tube 24/7
Yeah my daughter got an NI number this year because she turned 16. ****ing immigrant, I should kick her out. Just because she was born in Isleworth doesn't make her British. The NI numbers issued include everyone who turned 16, not just immigrants. But apparently Nigel Farage decided to lie about this yesterday, like he lied about the non existent plan to give Turkey membership of the EU in 5 years. The discussions have stopped, because the French and Germans (not Cameron who was very keen to get the Turks in) aren't happy with a multitude of things. And they can't continue because they miss loads of the human rights requirements. Won't stop Goldie worrying about 75 million Turks at the bottom of his garden by Tuesday week though.
 
Yeah my daughter got an NI number this year because she turned 16. ****ing immigrant, I should kick her out. Just because she was born in Isleworth doesn't make her British. The NI numbers issued include everyone who turned 16, not just immigrants. But apparently Nigel Farage decided to lie about this yesterday, like he lied about the non existent plan to give Turkey membership of the EU in 5 years. The discussions have stopped, because the French and Germans (not Cameron who was very keen to get the Turks in) aren't happy with a multitude of things. And they can't continue because they miss loads of the human rights requirements. Won't stop Goldie worrying about 75 million Turks at the bottom of his garden by Tuesday week though.
actually brillo pad head on The Politics Show has just confirmed it
 
Well, actually, I'm not saying any of that, Chaz. You are, by putting words into my mouth. I was just answering a question asked by Watford.

All I know is, if we were starting our country off now, from scratch, we probably wouldn't be basing our government elections on a semi-feudal system of sending a local representative by coach and horses to Parliament. We'd try and find something a little better - even if it wasn't perfect - just better. Just because we've always done it this way doesn't make it right, and the drop-off in voting numbers seems to support that. People don't vote because they don't think their vote can make a difference. We all deserve a system where it does.
I was directly responding to your point that you didn't see where the House of Lords sits within the PR system and the solution to local representation you outlined. I showed where it does, with the 'unelected' house checking the 'elected' house. With PR and a local representative house sat beneath Parliament, you will have an 'elected' house of representatives applying checks to an 'unelected' house of parliament. So basically the functions that the two houses undertake today will switch round.
 
what was flawed finglas was the Irish vote a few years back, the one you had to retake until you got the result your EU Masters wanted. Up Galway!
Yes we voted twice on the Nice treaty. Like a true democracy, at least we got to vote on it and nobody forced anybody to vote for something they didn't want. Big Boris is advocating that the UK might get to vote twice on it's membership of the EU. There is nothing wrong with voting twice on something.

Who are Galway? Up the Champions.
 
I was directly responding to your point that you didn't see where the House of Lords sits within the PR system and the solution to local representation you outlined. I showed where it does, with the 'unelected' house checking the 'elected' house. With PR and a local representative house sat beneath Parliament, you will have an 'elected' house of representatives applying checks to an 'unelected' house of parliament. So basically the functions that the two houses undertake today will switch round.

OK. Whatever...
 
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Yes we voted twice on the Nice treaty. Like a true democracy, at least we got to vote on it and nobody forced anybody to vote for something they didn't want. Big Boris is advocating that the UK might get to vote twice on it's membership of the EU. There is nothing wrong with voting twice on something.

Who are Galway? Up the Champions.

Yep because we didn't get the right answer first time around we had to do it a second time.........<whistle>
 
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Glad to see the "nothing" claim is out the window.

I agree with military force by NATO when a country's sovereign territory has been invaded by another country as was the case in WW2 and with Kuwait. The campaigns in Kuwait, WW2 and Bosnia and Afghanistan as the Yanks were going after Bin Laden and Al Qaeda for causing 9/11 were 100% justified in my opinion. When Kuwait was liberated, the allies should have finished the job and punished Saddam for his actions by continuing the assault all the way to Baghdad. The allies decided to do it a few years later based on lies that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Yes, he killed many of his own people (thousands in fact) but at least he had control of Iraq and the numbers who have lost their lives since make the numbers he killed look tiny by comparison. Similar could be said of Libya. Today, after the invasion Iraq is simply a mess and Isil have spread the war into Syria. This whole episode was caused by the invasion and when people in Britain complain about the millions of refugees from Syria and Iraq flooding into Europe and using that as part of their justification for leaving the EU, I would say, well, your own country played a major role in creating this crisis in the first place, not the EU.

It is my opinion that the international community should not get involved in civil wars. I am delighted to see the British and Americans keeping well away from Syria. Shame Putin decided to get involved. I also think that NATO should have got involved in Ukraine. Although that was technically a civil war, the rebels were obviously been backed by the Russians and Ukraine's sovereign territory was breached by Russia to move military equipment to the rebels. Where were NATO then? Why didn't they stand up to the bullies then?

I admire the policeman role Britain plays Goldie when countries are invaded but I disagree with them getting involved in civil wars and regime change. If they do get involved, they have to accept full responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Finally, I would just say, despite our declared neutrality during WW2, don't forget that Thousands of Irishmen volunteered to fight in the British, Australian, New Zealand and American Armies. Many Thousands of them lost their lives.
and my dear old mum God Bless, a Carlow girl who served in the NAAFI. Regaled me on her exploits during the war and her love of dancing, blitz or no blitz. Although she did admit, dancing with the crazy Canadians was more frightening than what the Luftwaffe dropped
 
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Yep because we didn't get the right answer first time around we had to do it a second time.........<whistle>
We had to do it a second time twice, the first time was the Nice treaty, which we rejected and then voted again to accept, and then along came the Lisbon treaty and the same thing happened again, rejected and subsequently accepted....
 
I think the Russians deserve some credit for defeating the Nazis.

I distinguish the Russians from the West because they were attacked without declaration of war. If they had not been attacked, Stalin would almost certainly not have entered the war, indeed Molotov had signed a peace treaty with Ribbontrop not long before Operation Barbarossa.
 
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I distinguish the Russians from the West because they were attacked without declaration of war. If they had not been attacked, Stalin would almost certainly not have entered the war, indeed Molotov had signed a peace treaty with Ribbontrop not long before Operation Barbarossa.
Balls, you forgot them. Pull the other one mate.
 
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Not 'whatever' - you can't just give up like that, where's the debate?

Sure I can. I've said my piece and expressed my views on the current electoral system, how I feel disenfranchised by it and what system might change the way I feel. I've responded to your comments as best I can. I'd be interested in your own views if you'd care to share them.
 
Balls, you forgot them. Pull the other one mate.

I didn't forget them. If we're looking for some moral high ground, its with the UK and France, and particularly the US (despite Pearl Harbour, because they could have just fought in the Pacific). It does not lie with Russia. Stalin entered a pact with Hitler for God's sake! He was an aggressor. He wanted to divide up Poland with Nazi Germany.
 
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