Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Ireland is voting though isn't it? I was actually banking on you all to keep us in
Very nice summary of where most of the nation is at I strongly suspect.
I listened to Peter Allen's morning show yesterday in the run up to PMQs. They had four politicians, both for and against, and he asked them to summarise in one phrase their stance. The stay in was about economic stability and security / immigration and the stay out was pretty much the same but with a different emphasis. Also lots of political point scoring which is useless and just clouds the issue.
My conclusion was to try and find out what John Piehaar is voting since and go with that! He seems an intelligent bloke and has no political axe to grind. Not a great way to decide so lots more research and reflection required.
Out, and control our own destiny. Cease relying on the teflon-coated blithering idiots in Brussels. Assess, and if necessary sack, the blithering idiots here.
They're taking the p**s out of us all.
No party should be able to form a government and claim to have a mandate from us when the system delivers us:
Conservative - just 11.3M votes (331 seats), compared to
Labour just 9.3M votes (232 seats),
UKIP with 3.8M votes (but only 1 seat...),
Green 1.1M votes (but only 1 seat...) and finally,
SNP 1.4M votes (and a massive 56!!! seats).
Someone justify how the number of seats awarded represents the will of the people, because I can't.
The system is not fit for purpose. My vote should not be wasted (as it is) just because I live in a constituency where my views are in the minority. Sending a local representative to the national government is a relic from previous centuries. We are now in the current era of mass communication. PR would be more representative, but the people who benefit from the current, flawed electoral system will never put into place a system where they do not do as well. Turkeys do not vote for Xmas...
No party should be able to form a government and claim to have a mandate from us when the system delivers us:
Conservative - just 11.3M votes (331 seats), compared to
Labour just 9.3M votes (232 seats),
UKIP with 3.8M votes (but only 1 seat...),
Green 1.1M votes (but only 1 seat...) and finally,
SNP 1.4M votes (and a massive 56!!! seats).
Someone justify how the number of seats awarded represents the will of the people, because I can't.
The system is not fit for purpose. My vote should not be wasted (as it is) just because I live in a constituency where my views are in the minority. Sending a local representative to the national government is a relic from previous centuries. We are now in the current era of mass communication. PR would be more representative, but the people who benefit from the current, flawed electoral system will never put into place a system where they do not do as well. Turkeys do not vote for Xmas...
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I voted Stay on here and will do so on June 23rd also. My reasons are more geopolitical than domestic - I believe a strong and united Europe is more necessary now than ever. With Putin becoming more and more belligerent and the terrifying possibility of a Trump presidency in the US, Europe is needed as a moderating influence and I believe Britain should play a full part in Europe instead of acting like a US mini-me.
As to other considerations, the effects on our economy are hard to assess, but I suspect we will be better off in than out. Immigration is a problem, but in my view immigration from within the EU is not the biggest concern. EU migrants come to work, not for benefits.
As to other considerations, the effects on our economy are hard to assess, but I suspect we will be better off in than out. Immigration is a problem, but in my view immigration from within the EU is not the biggest concern. EU migrants come to work, not for benefits.
Aside from the fact we had a referendum a few years back on adopting the AV system, which would cover pretty much what you want, and the overwhelming majority of voters voted to keep the current system. The people have spoken, there's little point complaining just because they didn't say what you wanted them to...
Neither do humans, or horses, or any creature really, it just turns up uninvited and stays till the new year...
Actually, Chaz, AV is not the same as PR.
Feel free to justify the current system. You know, why 1.4M votes gets you 56 seats and 1.1M only gets you 1 seat.
BTW - you're not trying to tell me to wear a decent suit and do my tie up, are you? ;-)
Very fair questions Nines, and ones that you would hope will be addressed in a calm and rational way through this campaign, but of course they won't.
The choice isn't actually between in or out. It's between out and sort of, on the periphery, in. Over the years we have negotiated our way into a strange relationship with the EU, which Cameron's little deal has strengthened a bit. If we were voting to stay in as a fully committed, involved and positive participant I would vote in. But we are voting primarily on 'we'll stay for the trade and bits that we benefit from, but would like to opt out of everything else'. Why bother, might as well be on the outside with a trade agreement.
I genuinely haven't made my mind up yet. Instinctively I am pro EU, despite its manifest flaws. But it doesn't seem to fit with the British, or probably the English, psyche and the endless whining about it is tiresome. Perhaps leaving would just remove the EU as a scapegoat and allow us to confront our own failings more directly.
I didn't say they were the same - simply that they would deliver what you want in terms of a better representation of the vote in Parliament.
And I'm not justifying anything. I think the overrepresentation that the last election gave the SNP is horrendously unfair. However, it did deliver a majority government instead of another coalition of unwilling bedfellows, and as such, you could argue that it served a purpose in the overall scheme of things.
As for your dress? In honesty, we're simply glad you put on your pants.
you DO put on your pants, right?
I'll be voting in, for two reasons.
Firstly, because of the impact that Brexit may have on the industry I work in, life sciences. This has been written about more eloquently here than I could manage, so I won't attempt a summary: http://scientistsforeu.uk/2015/11/the-brexit-effect-a-blow-to-uk-life-science-leadership/
Secondly [and this may upset some] because as a Londoner, I feel closer culturally to many other Europeans than I do to many fellow UK citizens. To put it in simple terms, I have two brothers; one who lives in Manchester, the other who lives in Paris. I live in London, roughly half way between the two in terms of travel time. When visiting each city, where do I feel more at home? Where do I feel is closer to London, my home, in terms of culture, values and lifestyle? Paris. Hardly the most scientific or academic argument, but hopefully helps to express why I feel the way I do, and as such, why I will be voting 'in'.
Firstly, because of the impact that Brexit may have on the industry I work in, life sciences. This has been written about more eloquently here than I could manage, so I won't attempt a summary: http://scientistsforeu.uk/2015/11/the-brexit-effect-a-blow-to-uk-life-science-leadership/
Secondly [and this may upset some] because as a Londoner, I feel closer culturally to many other Europeans than I do to many fellow UK citizens. To put it in simple terms, I have two brothers; one who lives in Manchester, the other who lives in Paris. I live in London, roughly half way between the two in terms of travel time. When visiting each city, where do I feel more at home? Where do I feel is closer to London, my home, in terms of culture, values and lifestyle? Paris. Hardly the most scientific or academic argument, but hopefully helps to express why I feel the way I do, and as such, why I will be voting 'in'.
I'd be more than happy to justify the current system, but suspect strongly that we will end up talking at each other, as opposed to with one another. Both proportional and non-proportional systems have very clear strengths and weaknesses - to pretend otherwise is clearly madness - and the 'justification' of any one system is merely based around the preference of the individual. I suspect that if you have already looked into the options [which you appear to have done], you will already know what any proponent of FPTP would say...
British citizens living in the UK have more control on what happens in the UK than any place I know of. You get to vote in national elections every 4 or 5 years, more often if the local MP dies or quits etc. Then you have local election's, elections to the European parliament about as often, plus referendums like this one. Ample voting opportunities across the board.
As far as the EU goes the UK has opted out of/negotiated out of any need for you to worry about "control of our own destiny". For Geopolitical reasons it is essential Britain stays in Europe, and high time Britain made a contribution to our area in line with the size, history and standing our Country once had, and not just financial. Time to vote In, and for the Government to get involved in securing a better future for the whole region.
It will certainly cause a hell of a lot of problems for many Brits living abroad. I spend far too much time and money with visa and pension applications as it is. I wonder if the Government has began to think about all that.
FPTP encourages a two-party system, whereas I don't think modern society fits that model. Ken Clarke, Iain Duncan Smith, Tony Blair and Jeremy Corbyn represent four completely different political points of view - who should be in different parties. People want that choice nowadays, if you are a pro-European one nation Tory (or a Blairite Labour voter) - and you have a choice of Jeremy Corbyn or IDS - you may as well not bother voting.