Off Topic The Politics Thread

[finglasqpr]

We have similar problems over here regarding immigration. Parts of Dublin have 70% non Irish populations. The ghettoization of such areas is not pleasant to see. Most of our lot come from China, Brazil, the Philippines, the Indian sub-continent and Eastern Europe. Some people are expressing concerns about the issue but I think overall people see the benefits these people have brought to the country and despite the huge levels we have experienced in the past 20 years, we remain very much pro-EU. I suppose you will decide your own fate in July. Good luck in deciding whatever is best for yourselves. Ireland wouldn't want the UK to leave.

 

[cor blymie]

We have similar problems over here regarding immigration. Parts of Dublin have 70% non Irish populations. The ghettoization of such areas is not pleasant to see. Most of our lot come from China, Brazil, the Philippines, the Indian sub-continent and Eastern Europe. Some people are expressing concerns about the issue but I think overall people see the benefits these people have brought to the country and despite the huge levels we have experienced in the past 20 years, we remain very much pro-EU. I suppose you will decide your own fate in July. Good luck in deciding whatever is best for yourselves. Ireland wouldn't want the UK to leave.

where is the work for these newcomers?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

.

 

[finglasqpr]

A lot of them arrived during the Celtic Tiger era when the economy was booming and they worked mostly in construction and medical services. Since the crash in 2007, a lot of our young professionals left the country to seek better jobs in Aus/NZ/Can/USA and UK leaving us with a huge shortfall in doctors, nurses, etc and most of the non EU immigrants were brought into the country legally by the government to cover the vacant positions we had. At the peak of the crisis, our unemployment rate was over 15%, it is now down to 8.6% with the economy growing again at 7% per annum.

 

[sb_73]

Enough of Europe and immigrants. For me at least. Apparently under the current government a woman born with no thigh bones who cannot walk more than 20 metres does not qualify for a motability allowance which enables her to have a specially adapted car which in turn enables her to work. I may not have heard it all correctly on the news, but this just seems nuts.

 

[sb_73]

EU secessionists (and others) where do you stand on NATO?
It has 28 members (one more than the EU) including Albania, the Baltic States, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland and Turkey (Goldie's nemesis!). An attack on one is considered to be an attack on all member nations, presumably theyare meant to respond on mass. Collective defence. And, a of course, a sacrifice of sovereignty.

 

[Chaz]

EU secessionists (and others) where do you stand on NATO?
It has 28 members (one more than the EU) including Albania, the Baltic States, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland and Turkey (Goldie's nemesis!). An attack on one is considered to be an attack on all member nations, presumably theyare meant to respond on mass. Collective defence. And, a of course, a sacrifice of sovereignty.

Not wanting to argue, but why 'of course'?

 

[sb_73]

Not wanting to argue, but why 'of course'?

Because NATO is a treaty based organisation, just like the EU, which mandates certain decisions to be made above single member country level. I haven't looked at the detail, but I think that if, say, Russia attacked Turkey, the response would be decided by NATO, a collective decision and the U.K. tied to it, rather than the UK response being decided by the UK alone. Of course we would be part of the decision making process, but if the action agreed wasn't to our liking we'd either have to grin and bear it or leave NATO.

 

[QPR999]

Apologies for the interruption, but this will make you grin

http://trumpdonald.org/

 

[sb_73]

Apologies for the interruption, but this will make you grin

http://trumpdonald.org/

Brilliant, it's going up by a thousand trumps every 10 seconds.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

EU secessionists (and others) where do you stand on NATO?
It has 28 members (one more than the EU) including Albania, the Baltic States, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland and Turkey (Goldie's nemesis!). An attack on one is considered to be an attack on all member nations, presumably theyare meant to respond on mass. Collective defence. And, a of course, a sacrifice of sovereignty.

The EU has 28 members too - we haven't left yet...

No problem with Nato. Assisting a fellow member can be by diplomacy. Such defence pacts have existed throughout history

 

[Chaz]

Because NATO is a treaty based organisation, just like the EU, which mandates certain decisions to be made above single member country level. I haven't looked at the detail, but I think that if, say, Russia attacked Turkey, the response would be decided by NATO, a collective decision and the U.K. tied to it, rather than the UK response being decided by the UK alone. Of course we would be part of the decision making process, but if the action agreed wasn't to our liking we'd either have to grin and bear it or leave NATO.

I'm still not sure where a loss of sovereignty then applies. There are hundreds of international treaties to which we as a nation are signatories, all of which we have signed up to as a nation because it's what we chose to do. Our obligations to Nato and the rest of the Nato countries are tied to the treaty organisation we freely chose to join. I think your view would be correct had we been forced to join against our wishes, but that's not the case.

 

[sb_73]

I'm still not sure where a loss of sovereignty then applies. There are hundreds of international treaties to which we as a nation are signatories, all of which we have signed up to as a nation because it's what we chose to do. Our obligations to Nato and the rest of the Nato countries are tied to the treaty organisation we freely chose to join. I think your view would be correct had we been forced to join against our wishes, but that's not the case.

You may be right. Bizarrely, on further reading I find myself in agreement with Vladimir Putin on this, which doesn't feel comfortable. Just seems self evident to me that when you enter a long term alliance or bloc, whether military or economic (which are both political in the end) you sacrifice some of your freedom to make unilateral decisions, because you have to take your partners into account in joint decision making. It's a bit different to simple treaties which set bilateral or multilateral rules of engagement, these alliances are much more active with bureaucracies, decision making processes etc. Just a different perspective.

Interesting looking programme on BBC2 at 11.20 where some military and diplomatic types get together to 'war game' a conflict in Eastern Europe.

Well that was interesting. Of course it ended up in nuclear war and this group decided 5-3 not to fire our Tridents at Russia even when their missiles were on the way to the UK. On the grounds that it would be a pointless spasm of revenge. The 'no's' included the former general who was the supreme commander of NATO in Europe at one time. The way this played out it was glaringly obvious that whatever the UK thought was irrelevant anyway, the US actions dictated the NATO strategy. Worth a watch in IPlayer, but a bit grim. Almost exactly the same scenario as Ukraine, but with a NATO country (Latvia) as 'victim'. Slightly spoilt by some Lib Dem peer former defence spokesperson on the panel, who was very shrill from the start.

 

[sb_73]

Morning!

More I ponder the World War Three programme last night, the more I would urge all to watch it.

Looks like Cameron has ****ed it up big time. Current polls (though who trusts them now?) have 45% pro Brexit, 36% pro EU, 19% undecided/won't vote. If the 19% go equally to either side, a convincing win for the outers. But it will be even more convincing because the rather weedy and irrelevant 'agreement' will get further watered down in negotiation over the next couple of weeks.

Astonishingly bad politics by our leader, especially when faced by the spittle flecked, bug eyed weirdo leaders of the Brexit campaign, who appear to hate each other much more than anything else.

Let's vote in June, or sooner if possible, and get on with it. Then Cameron can resign and I suspect Boris will take over. Osborne's moment in the sun has gone already, all of his economic 'sun is shining' propaganda has collapsed within 3 months, because it was all predicated on China's economy growing by at least 7% every year in perpetuity (work it out, when compounded that means doubling every decade), which was clearly never going to happen. His appointment as Governor of the Bank of England has no ****ing clue either, he'd be bottom of the prediction league. When are interest rates going up Marky? No I don't know either. But then again it's not my ****ing job to know is it? Perhaps it would be better if you said nothing at all rather than mislead individuals, families and companies with little hints that you then rescind. Rates will go up when unemployment host 7%? Oh look at that they are at 4.85% and set to fall, but we better not change interest rates because another recession may be coming due to causes we forgot to think about.

Not that I especially want interest rates to rise. I'm quite happy spending my money rather than saving it.

 

[QPR Oslo]

The EU is an imperfect concept worth continuing with and refining from the inside. I'm much more comfortable being a European alongside my neighbours than I am with the idea of the UK trying to make its way alone.

There are people who wish it were like it used to be, when Brits ruled a significant proportion of the world through military might and controlled the economic wealth that came from it. I cannot see how those days will ever return. It's disingenuous of some politicians to suggest they might, if we were only freed from "this tyranny of the EU". Making our way in the world without being part of the EU will be very lonely and without much influence to make others consider our point of view.

Please, someone who wants us to leave the EU, tell me what the UK will look like if we do and why it's a good thing. I only hear what's wrong with the EU from you, not what the outcome would be if we left.

I find this stand alone nationalism, go it alone, proposals to develop small grandiose little nationalist states, exceptionally small minded. It is also extremely dangerous as it takes Europe closer back to the situation that produced the extremism and world wars of the first part of the 20th century.
We have huge problems in this world. There would be no worse way to go than Scotland having their own state or the UK leaving the EU. Cameron is mad to have uttered the words referendum, let alone go as far as he's gone. We need to work closer globally to reduce the huge environmental, poverty, viral/medical, religious and racial intolerance, and not least military conflict problems that threaten our existence globally, not retreat into small enclaves with barriers and nuclear weapons all ready to add to the huge issues facing us across the World. Very sad that Britain even entertains such dangerous ideas.

 

[cor blymie]

I find this stand alone nationalism, go it alone, proposals to develop small grandiose little nationalist states, exceptionally small minded. It is also extremely dangerous as it takes Europe closer back to the situation that produced the extremism and world wars of the first part of the 20th century.
We have huge problems in this world. There would be no worse way to go than Scotland having their own state or the UK leaving the EU. Cameron is mad to have uttered the words referendum, let alone go as far as he's gone. We need to work closer globally to reduce the huge environmental, poverty, viral/medical, religious and racial intolerance, and not least military conflict problems that threaten our existence globally, not retreat into small enclaves with barriers and nuclear weapons all ready to add to the huge issues facing us across the World. Very sad that Britain even entertains such dangerous ideas.

mad to mention the referendum, he was forced to by the increasing disillusionment of the EU. It may not matter anyway how the vote goes. It's becoming less popular by the day in France, Germany, Greece etc.

 

[Chaz]

I'm still generally on the side of staying in the EU, because I think that the number of unknowns that would impact us all were we to leave is too large. I think that there's a way to go on the negotiations, however, and that there needs to be stronger safeguards relating to security of jobs, security of contracts between British firms and those from EU member states, a levelling of the playing field relating to such items as fuel, energy and transportation costs, and a serious discussion about how ALL EU countries can prevent a further mass migration of the 800,000 soon-to-be-Germans. That situation needs to be resolved properly, and quickly.

That's not me being a NIMBY, I just think that Merkel was a fool to open her border so readily, and she's created a situation which will rapidly escalate and hit many nations just as soon as those refugees and migrants get their citizenship. We ALL need to know what will be expected of us as individual nations, and we all need to know where the assistance to cope will come from. Otherwise I can see the EU vote quickly becoming a one-issue referendum, and that will be defined by the loudest voices. If the vote is driven by immigration fears, the Nationalists will stoke up racial fear, and the general public will not even consider any economic impacts.

I hope that the concessions on the table are not the end state, and that David Cameron is still working on getting a binding agreement on all these things.

 

[sb_73]

mad to mention the referendum, he was forced to by the increasing disillusionment of the EU. It may not matter anyway how the vote goes. It's becoming less popular by the day in France, Germany, Greece etc.

Isn't the referendum something he had to do to manage his own party? I think the majority of the public would be satisfied with a tougher (and implemented) line on immigration.

 

[cor blymie]

Isn't the referendum something he had to do to manage his own party? I think the majority of the public would be satisfied with a tougher (and implemented) line on immigration.

let's not forget the part UKIP had in forcing Camerons hand, they did well in the European election 2014

 

[rangercol]

I find this stand alone nationalism, go it alone, proposals to develop small grandiose little nationalist states, exceptionally small minded. It is also extremely dangerous as it takes Europe closer back to the situation that produced the extremism and world wars of the first part of the 20th century.
We have huge problems in this world. There would be no worse way to go than Scotland having their own state or the UK leaving the EU. Cameron is mad to have uttered the words referendum, let alone go as far as he's gone. We need to work closer globally to reduce the huge environmental, poverty, viral/medical, religious and racial intolerance, and not least military conflict problems that threaten our existence globally, not retreat into small enclaves with barriers and nuclear weapons all ready to add to the huge issues facing us across the World. Very sad that Britain even entertains such dangerous ideas.

The majority of Britains appear to support the idea.