Off Topic The Politics Thread

[qprbeth]

You wouldn't let it lie would you? Do you at least concede that Venice was a type of republic, though not really what we call a republic today? Actually the image is so powerful and funny that it's veracity has now become an irrelevance to me. Fortunately, with a QI elf like you around.........if it wasn't for work I would now be seeking documented examples of people laughing themselves to death. And singing frogs. Perhaps later.

Loads of lists on Internet Stan..fill your boots

(Being dyslexic and not reading things the way other people intend them, I was trying to respond to your statement ".find this quite brilliant and hope it's true". by saying Venice is no longer a republic, so it is no longer brilliamtly funny)

I love the insult "QI Elf"...more insults like that please....

 

[Stroller]

It's a nightmare choice for many Americans. Talked a bit about it last week to my colleagues in the US - they are all well educated, largely intelligent people, mainly, in US terms, centrists - pretty socially liberal, avowed capitalists (it's hard to express how firmly free enterprise and self reliance is hard wired into the American middle class). Most are moderate Republicans, some are moderate Democrats. They despise Trump. The visceral (and in my view justified) distrust of Clinton is huge. Sanders is respected for his values (despite his claims he is not a democratic socialist, he doesn't support public ownership of anything, pretty key for socialism) but not as a President. A 'none of the above' box would be welcome at the moment.

I also learned a bit about the primary process, which is incredibly tactical. You can register as either a democrat or a republican (but not both) and take part whatever your political affiliations. So many Republicans join Democrat primaries and vice versa to try and get the most acceptable opposition candidate for them, or just for mischief, even if they don't intend to vote for them in the real election. A kind of insurance policy. May account for Rubio's strong showing in Iowa. It might be claimed that the same thing happened for Corbyn, a bunch of people with no interest or roots in the Labour Party got him elected.

I'll guess at a Clinton v Rubio election.

I'm not sure the people you meet in the States are representative of the electorate, Stan. It seems Trump lost to Cruz in Iowa because he wasn't right-wing enough or religious enough. Rubio could be the least worst Republican option.

It would be fascinating to see how Sanders might fare in the main event, but I fear I know the answer - the same as Corbyn would get on here.

 

[sb_73]

I'm not sure the people you meet in the States are representative of the electorate, Stan. It seems Trump lost to Cruz in Iowa because he wasn't right-wing enough or religious enough. Rubio could be the least worst Republican option.

It would be fascinating to see how Sanders might fare in the main event, but I fear I know the answer - the same as Corbyn would get on here.

I have no doubt you are right Strolls regarding my unrepresentative sample. But money will win this thing, and the old Republican money will likely swing behind Rubio if he does OK in New Hampshire and Bush, Christie etc drop out. And places like Iowa have very few electoral college votes, they aren't representative of the East and West coast where the people live.

 

[rangercol]

The EU is an imperfect concept worth continuing with and refining from the inside. I'm much more comfortable being a European alongside my neighbours than I am with the idea of the UK trying to make its way alone.

There are people who wish it were like it used to be, when Brits ruled a significant proportion of the world through military might and controlled the economic wealth that came from it. I cannot see how those days will ever return. It's disingenuous of some politicians to suggest they might, if we were only freed from "this tyranny of the EU". Making our way in the world without being part of the EU will be very lonely and without much influence to make others consider our point of view.

Please, someone who wants us to leave the EU, tell me what the UK will look like if we do and why it's a good thing. I only hear what's wrong with the EU from you, not what the outcome would be if we left.

It's purely a question of sovereignty for me. I will vote to leave even if it is proved to me that we would be better off economically to stay in. We are part-governed by unelected bureaucrats from another Country. I will never accept that. We are more than capable of standing alone, rather than being part of a huge, failing, corrupt Federal experiment imo. We would be a completely independent Nation and that is what I want.

Also, I think it's really very disingenuous to suggest that many people that want to leave the EU want a return to the days of Empire. With respect, that's just complete rubbish. Plus, I haven't heard one politician quoted as saying such a thing as you suggest. Care to supply a source for this?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The EU is an imperfect concept worth continuing with and refining from the inside. I'm much more comfortable being a European alongside my neighbours than I am with the idea of the UK trying to make its way alone.

There are people who wish it were like it used to be, when Brits ruled a significant proportion of the world through military might and controlled the economic wealth that came from it. I cannot see how those days will ever return. It's disingenuous of some politicians to suggest they might, if we were only freed from "this tyranny of the EU". Making our way in the world without being part of the EU will be very lonely and without much influence to make others consider our point of view.

Please, someone who wants us to leave the EU, tell me what the UK will look like if we do and why it's a good thing. I only hear what's wrong with the EU from you, not what the outcome would be if we left.

OK, first, no one should talk the UK down (with or without Scotland). We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, in London we have the most important financial centre in the world and we import from the EU far more than we export to it. If we leave the EU, we would get good terms for a free trade agreement because European countries (particularly Germany, which obviously has huge influence over the other countries) cannot afford to have a tit-for- tat war with the UK. Germany's not going to damage itself financially in a fit of pique. The UK will then be free to make its own, favourable trade agreements with countries around the world, including incidentally, the Commonwealth countries like Australia and NZ, without EU red tape and restriction.

Immigration is a huge issue, and the UK and London are a massive draw . The pressures on our services in England - schools, NHS, housing, road congestion - will only get worse if there is no control. The EU may well admit Turkey into the EU. That's another 75m that would have the right to come and live in the UK. By leaving the EU, we will get to say who comes in and who is not wanted. Massive amounts of unskilled labour will probably not be wanted.

Full powers will be restored to Westminster, MP's electable by and answerable to us. We will make our own laws. Those that claim that the UK will have big influence in the EU if we stay in, need to explain to me what our vote would be worth against the Euro Block - 19 countries led by Germany that vote as one country. If the Euro Block decide to make Frankfurt the world financial centre at the cost of running down London, they will do it and we can only whistle...

Crime and Global terror - unaffected by us taking back our sovereignty - we would work with the EU and all other countries. We would also still belong to Nato.

Cameron supports the status quo because he's interested in his legacy and doesn't want to be seen to a part of change this late in his premiership. His ministers are interested in their careers and don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat.

It's down to the people to decide on the country that want to live in

 

[sb_73]

OK, first, no one should talk the UK down (with or without Scotland). We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, in London we have the most important financial centre in the world and we import from the EU far more than we export to it. If we leave the EU, we would get good terms for a free trade agreement because European countries (particularly Germany, which obviously has huge influence over the other countries) cannot afford to have a tit-for- tat war with the UK. Germany's not going to damage itself financially in a fit of pique. The UK will then be free to make its own, favourable trade agreements with countries around the world, including incidentally, the Commonwealth countries like Australia and NZ, without EU red tape and restriction.

Immigration is a huge issue, and the UK and London are a massive draw . The pressures on our services in England - schools, NHS, housing, road congestion - will only get worse if there is no control. The EU may well admit Turkey into the EU. That's another 75m that would have the right to come and live in the UK. By leaving the EU, we will get to say who comes in and who is not wanted. Massive amounts of unskilled labour will probably not be wanted.

Full powers will be restored to Westminster, MP's electable by and answerable to us. We will make our own laws. Those that claim that the UK will have big influence in the EU if we stay in, need to explain to me what our vote would be worth against the Euro Block - 19 countries led by Germany that vote as one country. If the Euro Block decide to make Frankfurt the world financial centre at the cost of running down London, they will do it and we can only whistle...

Crime and Global terror - unaffected by us taking back our sovereignty - we would work with the EU and all other countries. We would also still belong to Nato.

Cameron supports the status quo because he's interested in his legacy and doesn't want to be seen to a part of change this late in his premiership. His ministers are interested in their careers and don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat.

It's down to the people to decide on the country that want to live in

The sooner we have this ****ing referendum and get it over with the better.

 

[cor blymie]

fantastic response Goldhawk

 

[Deleted 1]

It's purely a question of sovereignty for me. I will vote to leave even if it is proved to me that we would be better off economically to stay in. We are part-governed by unelected bureaucrats from another Country. I will never accept that. We are more than capable of standing alone, rather than being part of a huge, failing, corrupt Federal experiment imo. We would be a completely independent Nation and that is what I want.

Also, I think it's really very disingenuous to suggest that many people that want to leave the EU want a return to the days of Empire. With respect, that's just complete rubbish. Plus, I haven't heard one politician quoted as saying such a thing as you suggest. Care to supply a source for this?

I'm very much in favour of staying in but have to agree with this wholeheartedly. I think it's insulting - and actually bordering on offensive - to suggest most who want to come out think like that.

 

[kiwiqpr]

The sooner we have this ****ing referendum and get it over with the better.

We will soon find something else to argue about

 

[rangercol]

OK, first, no one should talk the UK down (with or without Scotland). We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, in London we have the most important financial centre in the world and we import from the EU far more than we export to it. If we leave the EU, we would get good terms for a free trade agreement because European countries (particularly Germany, which obviously has huge influence over the other countries) cannot afford to have a tit-for- tat war with the UK. Germany's not going to damage itself financially in a fit of pique. The UK will then be free to make its own, favourable trade agreements with countries around the world, including incidentally, the Commonwealth countries like Australia and NZ, without EU red tape and restriction.

Immigration is a huge issue, and the UK and London are a massive draw . The pressures on our services in England - schools, NHS, housing, road congestion - will only get worse if there is no control. The EU may well admit Turkey into the EU. That's another 75m that would have the right to come and live in the UK. By leaving the EU, we will get to say who comes in and who is not wanted. Massive amounts of unskilled labour will probably not be wanted.

Full powers will be restored to Westminster, MP's electable by and answerable to us. We will make our own laws. Those that claim that the UK will have big influence in the EU if we stay in, need to explain to me what our vote would be worth against the Euro Block - 19 countries led by Germany that vote as one country. If the Euro Block decide to make Frankfurt the world financial centre at the cost of running down London, they will do it and we can only whistle...

Crime and Global terror - unaffected by us taking back our sovereignty - we would work with the EU and all other countries. We would also still belong to Nato.

Cameron supports the status quo because he's interested in his legacy and doesn't want to be seen to a part of change this late in his premiership. His ministers are interested in their careers and don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat.

It's down to the people to decide on the country that want to live in

Superb post.

 

[rangercol]

The sooner we have this ****ing referendum and get it over with the better.

Why the agitation?

 

[Sooperhoop]

There is undoubtedly a 'fait accompli' about Cameron's position. His gag on ministers expressing their views underlines his paranoia that the public may be persuaded to vote 'No'. There will be an onslaught from big business, the CBI and many on the Left who are naturally 'at home' in the EU to brainwash the public with scare stories of the cost of leaving.

The reality is the very make-up of our country is threatened by a massive influx of people who abhor western values and will not integrate whilst we will be expected to bend over backwards to accommodate them when we struggle to operate basic services such as education, housing and healthcare. We have had decades of anyone raising concerns about immigrants being labelled 'racist'. Well, with the numbers flooding Europe at present and the problems in Germany, Denmark and Sweden being highlighted it's not going to get better with the current EU Laws...

 

[sb_73]

Why the agitation?

Repetition of opinion by all concerned, including me, is becoming tiresome. I had to stop myself from picking holes in Goldies post because it would have been dull to read, needlessly confrontational and ultimately pointless. In other words I was cross with myself.

All this negotiation stuff is a waste of time. If Cameron wants to stay in but also keep the euro sceptics with him he should simply say 'sorry, but we are closing the borders/ instituting our own immigration criteria and no one will get state benefits until we think they have earned them' Probably a breech of the treaty but will force the issue.

 

[Stroller]

l

The reality is the very make-up of our country is threatened by a massive influx of people who abhor western values and will not integrate whilst we will be expected to bend over backwards to accommodate them when we struggle to operate basic services such as education, housing and healthcare....

Are the people that abhor western values from the EU?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

On Stroller's point - they could be from the EU

1. Mrs Merkel has invited 800,000 unveted immigrants into Germany. In short time, they will have German citizenship and thus have a right to come and live in this country

2. The UK is under increasing pressure from Germany to take more non-EU migrants - Including Germany's threat to abandon the Dublin Protocol.

3. If Turkey join the EU - and that is a prospect going forward - we'll find that country is split between those that support Western values and those that favour the old Islamic style values, some of which currently support ISIS

 

[finglasqpr]

Are the people that abhor western values from the EU?

A lot of them are home grown. Whether you choose to be in or out wouldn't have made any difference with the 7/7 bombers who were all from Yorkshire.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Are the people that abhor western values from the EU?

The EU is their gateway. Why are their camps set up in Calais? Asylum is meant to be claimed in the first country they arrive in but open borders are making a nonsense of rules that have been in place for decades...

 

[Sooperhoop]

A lot of them are home grown. Whether you choose to be in or out wouldn't have made any difference with the 7/7 bombers who were all from Yorkshire.

It's not about bombers or other assorted nutcases. It is about large areas becoming ghettos. In London there are places that have become unrecognisable from what they were originally 30 years ago. Over 50% of London's population were not born in the UK, many are wealthy and many are not, those are just the ones officially here, it is becoming unsustainable in many areas of the country...

 

[finglasqpr]

It's not about bombers or other assorted nutcases. It is about large areas becoming ghettos. In London there are places that have become unrecognisable from what they were originally 30 years ago. Over 50% of London's population were not born in the UK, many are wealthy and many are not, those are just the ones officially here, it is becoming unsustainable in many areas of the country...

So, if you had left the EU 30 years ago, would the 7/7 bombings still have happened? The answer is yes as the people who abhor Western values were British born of Pakistani origin from Yorkshire. If you had left the EU and not had a commonwealth, they MAY not have been in the country. It is a dual issue - EU and Commonwealth immigration.

 

[Sooperhoop]

So, if you had left the EU 30 years ago, would the 7/7 bombings still have happened? The answer is yes as the people who abhor Western values were British born of Pakistani origin from Yorkshire. If you had left the EU and not had a commonwealth, they MAY not have been in the country. It is a dual issue - EU and Commonwealth immigration.

It's nothing to do with bombers, it is about the transformation of areas, not just in London, that are becoming alien to the traditional British way of life. Not just non EU migrants, many from Eastern Europe are at odds with conforming to our way of life.

People who choose to settle in a foreign country should have respect for the values and way of life of that country, unfortunately, the chattering classes with their political correctness imposed on behalf of those they think may be offended have created schisms in society that may be too far gone to rectify...