Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

Ok my take is… kinda. So my first flippant thought was can you imagine a teenager having to fill in the paperwork for that at all let alone on a whim!! My next thought was .. well it’s not exactly difficult to reverse surely? We aren’t talking surgery or anything like that. All it is, is paperwork, maybe they’re going to get a bit of unnecessary admin to do although I suspect it would be extremely rare

I then had a thought about the trans kids I know or are kids of people I know, this is my experience alone, but all of them have been living as their identified gender for years and years. I’d say the average age to ‘come out’ is about 11 (again this is in my experience not a large sample) and each and every one of them have suffered .. because of non acceptance, lack of support and bullying from society, so it’s a big ****ing rock to put on your back, so not done lightly.

On face value I can see the concern, and maybe if I believed 16/17 year olds using this bill on a whim.. yeah, I suspect it unlikely though and those who would use this (remember it’s only paperwork so can be reversed) would be kids living their identified gender for many years.

Saying that I’d preferred if they’d said 16/17 year olds would have ‘needed’ 18 months, rather than 6, I’d hope that might appease the objections, however I suspect I’m being a touch optimistic there. I wouldn’t have a pop at either you or Col on this as I believe your concerns are genuine, but let’s face it there are others out there that hate trans peoples existence and no hoops they could jump through would ever be enough.

You see this is probably in part where we differ….I personally don’t see a child of 11 as being able to make the decision that his/her gender is wrong……from having quite a few kids of my own I can absolutely say that none of them could make a rational, far reaching, important decision as that at that young age…….what other decisions do you think young kids have the maturity to make ? Have sex ? Drive cars ? Work full time in a factory ?…..of course you don’t…..so then why should changing gender be any different.
And still at 16…..kids are easily manipulated, easily coerced, easily cajoled into thinking or saying what is expected of them or what someone else wants them to think.
We don’t let people make the decision of drinking alcohol or smoking till their 18….so why should this be any different ?

Of course we won’t agree….however I respect your views

 

[Steelmonkey]

Today, going to plaster this old ladies bathroom 73 years old and I find her dead in her armchair! Sweet jesus things come in threes they say!

Hope she paid you up front!

 

[Staines R's]

Well what a couple of days I've had! Last night an extremely pissed woman drove into my local Asda carpark to buy more booze. Myself and others witnessed her and stopped her from getting back in her car. She was smashed! Police arrived, checked the CCTV, couldn't make out her number plate and drove her home. ****ing pathetic and I told the ****s so.
Today, going to plaster this old ladies bathroom 73 years old and I find her dead in her armchair! Sweet jesus things come in threes they say!

Was she your first ? Dead person I mean ?

 

[Willhoops]

And only 3 months living as their new gender for over 18s, and then no assessment by any medical body, be it physical or psychological, just a form to fill in and away you go. I'm not for putting barriers in the way, but reducing the time from the existing two years to three months is a bit of a large step. If, as you suggest, they are coming out and living as their alternative gender in their early teens, then the timescale proposed is pretty irrelevant.

I'm more concerned that the SNP and their allies in the Green Party have pushed this through when it has very little public support up here, and are now going to use this as a rallying call for IndyRef.

I definitely think that it should be made easier in general but this does seem to be a huge curveball and unnecessary, again from my experience, which is limited, they’d be way more other stuff more important and pressing in the first three months.

 

[Willhoops]

You see this is probably in part where we differ….I personally don’t see a child of 11 as being able to make the decision that his/her gender is wrong……from having quite a few kids of my own I can absolutely say that none of them could make a rational, far reaching, important decision as that at that young age…….what other decisions do you think young kids have the maturity to make ? Have sex ? Drive cars ? Work full time in a factory ?…..of course you don’t…..so then why should changing gender be any different.
And still at 16…..kids are easily manipulated, easily coerced, easily cajoled into thinking or saying what is expected of them or what someone else wants them to think.
We don’t let people make the decision of drinking alcohol or smoking till their 18….so why should this be any different ?

Of course we won’t agree….however I respect your views

I suspect your mind would be changed if you walked a mile as a parent of a trans teen, let alone as a trans person. The work, drink, smoke and have sex are things we do not what we are, so not a great comparison.

Not being trans I can’t put myself in their shoes and comprehend what it feels like, but seeing what people are prepared to put themselves through, seeing the happiness, the relief when they have the feeling they are living their authentic selves is quite something. A parent to a trans teen put it very well. Someone asked them what it was like to lose their daughter (who identified as a boy).. they replied, their daughter had been lost a long time ago (to being a very unhappy, reclusive, unresponsive child) when he presented as male (no surgery, etc) they had their child back.

 

[Staines R's]

I suspect your mind would be changed if you walked a mile as a parent of a trans teen, let alone as a trans person. The work, drink, smoke and have sex are things we do not what we are, so not a great comparison.

Not being trans I can’t put myself in their shoes and comprehend what it feels like, but seeing what people are prepared to put themselves through, seeing the happiness, the relief when they have the feeling they are living their authentic selves is quite something. A parent to a trans teen put it very well. Someone asked them what it was like to lose their daughter (who identified as a boy).. they replied, their daughter had been lost a long time ago (to being a very unhappy, reclusive, unresponsive child) when he presented as male (no surgery, etc) they had their child back.

Our opinions on this are always gonna differ, and we aren’t gonna change each other’s……however respect

 

[Willhoops]

@Staines R's knowing your sexuality, whilst not ideal is a better comparison, whilst still not perfect. Do you think you knew your sexuality before you were 18?

You also need to factor in that you are going to get negativity from society if you’re coming out as either gay or trans, so you mentioned coercion, the biggest coercion is to fit into societies ‘norms’. Hence why some people hide this.

 

[Staines R's]

@Staines R's knowing your sexuality, whilst not ideal is a better comparison, whilst still not perfect. Do you think you knew your sexuality before you were 18?

You also need to factor in that you are going to get negativity from society if you’re coming out as either gay or trans, so you mentioned coercion, the biggest coercion is to fit into societies ‘norms’. Hence why some people hide this.

I honestly don’t get how your comparison fits into the conversation.

 

[Willhoops]

I honestly don’t get how your comparison fits into the conversation.

You knew your sexuality before you were 18 right? But you’re saying a trans person can’t know they are trans before they are 18. How come?

Societal norms/expectations are surely the biggest cohesion to adhere? And we grow up with societal norms being you grow up, get a job, get married and have kids. To go against that is only going to make your life more difficult.

 

[sb_73]

@Staines R's knowing your sexuality, whilst not ideal is a better comparison, whilst still not perfect. Do you think you knew your sexuality before you were 18?

You also need to factor in that you are going to get negativity from society if you’re coming out as either gay or trans, so you mentioned coercion, the biggest coercion is to fit into societies ‘norms’. Hence why some people hide this.

I’m trying to follow this debate without joining in because it covers issues which I am profoundly ignorant about. But this post has confused me. Sexuality/sexual orientation compared to gender identification?Aren’t these radically different things, completely different categories? I don’t think they can be compared.

 

[Willhoops]

I’m trying to follow this debate without joining in because it covers issues which I am profoundly ignorant about. But this post has confused me. Sexuality/sexual orientation compared to gender identification?Aren’t these radically different things, completely different categories? I don’t think they can be compared.

You’re right. I only use it because I don’t think their is a better comparison. Again whilst me and Staines disagree on this I respect his views but I consider something like sexuality which you know about yourself, which I believe to be the case on gender, is more comparable than something we chose to do like smoking, drinking etc.

 

[Yorkshire-Rs]

I’m trying to follow this debate without joining in because it covers issues which I am profoundly ignorant about. But this post has confused me. Sexuality/sexual orientation compared to gender identification?Aren’t these radically different things, completely different categories? I don’t think they can be compared.

I was thinking the same, not really sure anyone can have an understanding other than those who have gone through gender transition or have had a close family member who has gone through the process. I would be surprised if my 11 year old daughter did have any thoughts regarding gender identity though, although as previous posts have stated maybe that is because she is happy being a girl?

 

[Staines R's]

You knew your sexuality before you were 18 right? But you’re saying a trans person can’t know they are trans before they are 18. How come?

Societal norms/expectations are surely the biggest cohesion to adhere? And we grow up with societal norms being you grow up, get a job, get married and have kids. To go against that is only going to make your life more difficult.

With respect I’ve never mentioned my sexuality and maybe, just maybe I’ve experimented with the same sex…..I would add that I know more than a few men and women who lived as “straight” only to come out as “gay” many years later….not through repressing their feelings but because they just didn’t know who they were. Always found the subject of quite interesting when discussed this with a gay mate of mine, who was a bit of a ladies man up to his 30’s, then gradually realised that he liked men better. He couldn’t really say when he realised but definitely didn’t know who he was at a young age.

 

[kiwiqpr]

With respect I’ve never mentioned my sexuality and maybe, just maybe I’ve experimented with the same sex…..I would add that I know more than a few men and women who lived as “straight” only to come out as “gay” many years later….not through repressing their feelings but because they just didn’t know who they were. Always found the subject of quite interesting when discussed this with a gay mate of mine, who was a bit of a ladies man up to his 30’s, then gradually realised that he liked men better. He couldn’t really say when he realised but definitely didn’t know who he was at a young age.

Keep the story of those experiments to yourself
Unless what you mean by experimenting with the same sex was two girls

 

[Willhoops]

With respect I’ve never mentioned my sexuality and maybe, just maybe I’ve experimented with the same sex…..I would add that I know more than a few men and women who lived as “straight” only to come out as “gay” many years later….not through repressing their feelings but because they just didn’t know who they were. Always found the subject of quite interesting when discussed this with a gay mate of mine, who was a bit of a ladies man up to his 30’s, then gradually realised that he liked men better. He couldn’t really say when he realised but definitely didn’t know who he was at a young age.

Do you not think that society had anything to do with them not realising their sexuality till later in their life? As I’ve mentioned growing up the norm/what was represented was heterosexuality, get married have kids. If that is what you see over and over, well it might have an influence on a person who may have subconsciously suppressed their genuine feelings?

 

[Wherever]

Can’t help but think Sturgeon is turning this into an anti English/Westminster thing for political gain thereby taking away from the whole and more important issues of gender/sexuality. I do hope it back fires on her.
I do think 16 is too young to make a final decision and that with maturity waiting two years for any final decision and/or reassignment would be worth it. Some US states allows 16 to decide but then they have so many more issues to contend with.
Being 16 some are mature and some are not enough to decide, so this along with having the vote and drinking, 18 is a safer bet.

 

[kiwiqpr]

i blame wimmins lib and all the estrogen being flushed down into the water system for ****ing with the kids
or it could be all the microplastics they are drinking
or it could be something else

 

[kiwiqpr]

rnli will be bankrupt by march

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Robert Jenrick
@RobertJenrick


Last year at least 4,000 migrants attempted to enter the UK in HGVs.
We’re increasing the fine for bringing stowaways into the country from £2k to £10k per migrant.
The penalties hadn’t changed for 20 years.
We’re restoring deterrence to the system.

 

[kiwiqpr]

its your favourite kelvin again

Kelvin MacKenzie
@kelvmackenzie


Starting salaries to hit £30K...average pay a couple of quid off £40K...and the real winner is the employer pension contribution of 23.6% compared with the private sector often receiving less than 4%. Throw in 13 weeks holiday and being a teacher doesn't seem too bad.

 

[kiwiqpr]

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