Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

One neo-Nazi does not make a Nazi state, Stainsey, ffs! Every nation on earth has a few of them

I didn’t actually say it did Goldie, and it would be silly to state as such. I’m fully aware that their is without doubt many good, honest and noble people in Ukraine who are both anti-racist and anti-Nazi……however my point was that for the Beeb to not somehow realise the significance of that particular photo is truly appalling.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I heard a Ukrainian representative on the radio on Monday saying, 'If NATO won't enforce a no-fly zone, give us the planes and we'll do it ourselves. We have the pilots'. I now read that the EU is doing just that, supplying 70 fighter jets. For our part, Dominic Raab 'hasn't ruled out' doing similar.

How come the 'lumbering' EU has been able to move much faster than us on refugees, sanctions and now planes than the supposedly newly nimble UK?

I've already pointed out we were quicker on sanctions, Strolls. You didn't respond, and now you're peddling the same incorrect stuff again. Maybe if you say it often enough, someone will believe you.

The UK were the first nation to send defensive armaments to Ukraine and the Ukraine thanked us for it. The EU are slower, but to be fair, the penny has now dropped that there cannot be continued dealings with Putin, a man who is worse than a mafia leader, he's a terrorist and is being likened to Osama Bin Laden. The EU are doing the right thing by refugees, giving them time limited refuge, and we will take our share.

Sending fighter jets to Ukraine is incredibly sensitive if you're dealing with a madman. This suggests the EU have changed their minds:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-promise-to-supply-fighter-jets-to-ukraine-gets-grounded/

 

[Stroller]

I've already pointed out we were quicker on sanctions, Strolls. You didn't respond, and now you're peddling the same incorrect stuff again. Maybe if you say it often enough, someone will believe you.

The UK were the first nation to send defensive armaments to Ukraine and the Ukraine thanked us for it. The EU are slower, but to be fair, the penny has now dropped that there cannot be continued dealings with Putin, a man who is worse than a mafia leader, he's a terrorist and is being likened to Osama Bin Laden. The EU are doing the right thing by refugees, giving them time limited refuge, and we will take our share.

Sending fighter jets to Ukraine is incredibly sensitive if you're dealing with a madman. This suggests the EU have changed their minds:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-promise-to-supply-fighter-jets-to-ukraine-gets-grounded/

We weren't quicker on sanctions and we didn't go as far. Check out the list of individuals sanctioned by the EU compared to those sanctioned by the UK.

 

[ELLERS]

I see that Russian TV is saying the missile attack yesterday on that building was a Ukrainian missile. A deliberate self-inflicted act. I'm sure no one is going to believe that...

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I didn’t actually say it did Goldie, and it would be silly to state as such. I’m fully aware that their is without doubt many good, honest and noble people in Ukraine who are both anti-racist and anti-Nazi……however my point was that for the Beeb to not somehow realise the significance of that particular photo is truly appalling.

The implication of your post was that the Ukraine were not the "good guys" in this war. We know they have a tiny minority of extreme right wingers, like every nation. And no one is pretending your average Russian is evil. But their leader is, and unless they change him, we are moving closer to a European war, with Belorussia entering the fray and Moldavia seemingly in Putin's long term sights.

 

[ELLERS]

I've already pointed out we were quicker on sanctions, Strolls. You didn't respond, and now you're peddling the same incorrect stuff again. Maybe if you say it often enough, someone will believe you.

The UK were the first nation to send defensive armaments to Ukraine and the Ukraine thanked us for it. The EU are slower, but to be fair, the penny has now dropped that there cannot be continued dealings with Putin, a man who is worse than a mafia leader, he's a terrorist and is being likened to Osama Bin Laden. The EU are doing the right thing by refugees, giving them time limited refuge, and we will take our share.

Sending fighter jets to Ukraine is incredibly sensitive if you're dealing with a madman. This suggests the EU have changed their minds:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-promise-to-supply-fighter-jets-to-ukraine-gets-grounded/

Sadly Stroller is doing his utmost to play political point-scoring. No matter how much evidence you show him of the UK doing a good job, he won't accept it. That's him.

 

[ELLERS]

The implication of your post was that the Ukraine were not the "good guys" in this war.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

We weren't quicker on sanctions and we didn't go as far. Check out the list of individuals sanctioned by the EU compared to those sanctioned by the UK.

More UK sanctions are being put in place every day. What more do you feel the UK should do? Remember, EU states were much more reliant on Russia for eg energy, so it's easier to find things to sanction.

The UK is going for the oligarchs' property. Abramovich is doing all he can to transfer his assets. He will use human right laws to try and stop the UK which will delay things. I recall you're in favour of strong human rights legislation.

 

[Staines R's]

The implication of your post was that the Ukraine were not the "good guys" in this war. We know they have a tiny minority of extreme right wingers, like every nation. And no one is pretending your average Russian is evil. But their leader is, and unless they change him, we are moving closer to a European war, with Belorussia entering the fray and Moldavia seemingly in Putin's long term sights.

But that’s what is being stated Goldie…..Ukraine good, Russian bad.
Too many people, like on here, are unwilling to educate themselves, look at the wider picture and debate the issue, and would rather take a narrow minded view of the whole thing (I don’t include you in that category as you’ve always been willing to argue your case fully and debate without insult)
The issues in Donbas and atrocities from BOTH sides were the catalyst for the situation that wasn’t addressed. This gave that mad **** that Putin is, the excuse to go in heavy handed and lead us to where we are now.
As you’ve said before….Putin needs taking out sooner rather than later…I’m just hoping it’s not already too late.

 

[Staines R's]

According to you there was never gonna be an invasion

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Sadly Stroller is doing his utmost to play political point-scoring. No matter how much evidence you show him of the UK doing a good job, he won't accept it. That's him.

For me, both the UK and the EU are behaving properly in all this. I don't have time for Brexit point scoring unless there is a material deficiency from one or other side. If there is a positive in what Putin is doing, it has pulled Europe together on the freedom and defence issue.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

But that’s what is being stated Goldie…..Ukraine good, Russian bad.
Too many people, like on here, are unwilling to educate themselves, look at the wider picture and debate the issue, and would rather take a narrow minded view of the whole thing (I don’t include you in that category as you’ve always been willing to argue your case fully and debate without insult)
The issues in Donbas and atrocities from BOTH sides were the catalyst for the situation that wasn’t addressed. This gave that mad **** that Putin is, the excuse to go in heavy handed and lead us to where we are now.
As you’ve said before….Putin needs taking out sooner rather than later…I’m just hoping it’s not already too late.

Let's agree this, Stainsey. Ukraine and Russia, close cousins where a squabble turned nasty in Donbass. But this was due to Putin taking Crimea by force.

Now, even slight restraints Putin may once have had are gone and he's marching into Ukraine. He may be mentally ill. It is up to Russia to stop him. It was their system that created this monster. In the same way, Germany took responsibility for creating Hitler and the National Socialists.

 

[Staines R's]

Let's agree this, Stainsey. Ukraine and Russia, close cousins where a squabble turned nasty in Donbass. But this was due to Putin taking Crimea by force.

Now, even slight restraints Putin may once have had are gone and he's marching into Ukraine. He may be mentally ill. It is up to Russia to stop him. It was their system that created this monster. In the same way, Germany took responsibility for creating Hitler and the National Socialists.

I agree he (Putin) seems on the face of it very unhinged and does appear to be having some kind of mental episode…paranoid schizophrenia ? It happens every day, however this time it’s someone in charge which is very scary.
A bit like the airline pilot who wants to commit suicide……taking down all and sundry with him but this time on a massive scale.
Yeah Russia should have stuck with Communism…..at least the right wingers knew their enemy then

 

[ELLERS]

For me, both the UK and the EU are behaving properly in all this. I don't have time for Brexit point scoring unless there is a material deficiency from one or other side. If there is a positive in what Putin is doing, it has pulled Europe together on the freedom and defence issue.

Putin underestimated this whole thing. I will quote a young Ukrainian girl discussing Russia on the news today... "don't f22k with us". Putin will lose this and hopefully, the young Russians, who don't have a problem with the west, will rise up and dispose of Putin and his gangsters and finally bring Russia into a fair modern society and say goodbye to those outdated ideologies.

 

[Stroller]

For me, both the UK and the EU are behaving properly in all this. I don't have time for Brexit point scoring unless there is a material deficiency from one or other side. If there is a positive in what Putin is doing, it has pulled Europe together on the freedom and defence issue.

I'd say there is a material deficiency on the UK's side, particularly on refugees and sanctions. You never answered my question as to whether the EU could have got unanimity on Ukrainian refugees if the UK was still a member, did you?

Ukraine refugees: What the EU and other countries are doing to help and why UK response has been criticised (msn.com)

 

[Staines R's]

Putin underestimated this whole thing. I will quote a young Ukrainian girl discussing Russia on the news today... "don't f22k with us". Putin will lose this and hopefully, the young Russians, who don't have a problem with the west, will rise up and dispose of Putin and his gangsters and finally bring Russia into a fair modern society and say goodbye to those outdated ideologies.

Are you gonna volunteer to go out there and fight for what’s right mate ? Plenty are and I’d be willing to chip in for some equipment for you.

 

[ELLERS]

BREAKING NEWS: Roman Abramovich puts Chelsea up for sale and wants £3BILLION, with a focus on finding a US tycoon buyer, after Swiss medical magnate confirmed he's among those in talks to buy
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10568593/Chelsea-Roman-Abramovich-Blues-sale-wants-3BILLION.html

 

[sb_73]

I wonder how the Russian conscripts will react when they realise that their pay has been effectively halved by inflation/ exchange rate collapse? Even more so the mercenaries of the Wagner group (if we are on political affiliations, they are named Wagner for a reason) who seem to do a lot of Russia’s special forces work for them (as private armies are illegal in Russia, safe to assume they are in fact a part of the Russian military with ‘deniability’). The other rogue group involved are the Chechen special forces, apparently doing a lot of sabotage for Putin. Chechen President, Ramzan Kadyrov, has admitted they have taken casualties.

But the Russian military have pretty obviously underestimated the strength and determination of the Ukrainian defence, and likely overestimated their own capability as well. Slow learners, they were the same in Syria, and when they realised they couldn’t take and hold an urban area, they simply bombed them flat, cf Aleppo. I’m afraid that this might be the next step in Ukraine.

 

[Staines R's]

I wonder how the Russian conscripts will react when they realise that their pay has been effectively halved by inflation/ exchange rate collapse? Even more so the mercenaries of the Wagner group (if we are on political affiliations, they are named Wagner for a reason) who seem to do a lot of Russia’s special forces work for them (as private armies are illegal in Russia, safe to assume they are in fact a part of the Russian military with ‘deniability’). The other rogue group involved are the Chechen special forces, apparently doing a lot of sabotage for Putin. Chechen President, Ramzan Kadyrov, has admitted they have taken casualties.

But the Russian military have pretty obviously underestimated the strength and determination of the Ukrainian defence, and likely overestimated their own capability as well. Slow learners, they were the same in Syria, and when they realised they couldn’t take and hold an urban area, they simply bombed them flat, cf Aleppo. I’m afraid that this might be the next step in Ukraine.

Do you not think that the Russians have tried to be pretty light handed and tried to avoid civilian casualties so far at least for the first stage of the conflict ? Wasn’t it something like 130 civilian deaths reported so far by the UN ? Do you think they (the Russians) genuinely believed the Ukrainian public would rise up against their current leaders and welcome the Russian invaders with open arms ? A bit naive if they did surely…but if not what other reason would they have to not annihilate whole neighbourhoods and bomb them indiscriminately to submission ?
Sorry mate…so many questions but always interested in your thoughts

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I'd say there is a material deficiency on the UK's side, particularly on refugees and sanctions. You never answered my question as to whether the EU could have got unanimity on Ukrainian refugees if the UK was still a member, did you?

Ukraine refugees: What the EU and other countries are doing to help and why UK response has been criticised (msn.com)

And you didn't answer my questions on what further sanctions the UK should be putting in place...

As to refugees, if there is a security risk, then individuals should be vetted before they enter the country. That seems prudent. We'll take 100,000 to start with and then review as we go forwards. I see no reason why we should not take the same number of vetted refugees as say, the Netherlands, that has a population about as dense as ours. If countries like Poland take more than theirshare of refugees, we should be contributing financially to the extra cost alongside EU member states. Ultimately, the cost should fall to Russia, but I can't see reparations coming any time soon.