Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Goldhawk-Road]

As I said, I was pointing out the hypocrisy. If you choose to call that 'weaponsing', so be it.

Most people in the UK are not against legal immigrants, but they want to see control on numbers and vetting of individuals to weed out criminals, terrorists etc. So for people like Adil Ray to try to rub ordinary citizens noses in the **** because of Raducanu's victory is right out of order. The British have been hugely welcoming of immigrants over history, but there is an awareness of a numbers issue over recent years. We are one of the most densely populated countries in the world and our services are struggling.

Where I will agree with you, Strolls, is that some in the media and/or politics need to think more about what they say. Nigel Farage, who is obviously incredibly influential, once asked rhetorically "Would you want to live next to a Romanian." I suspect what he meant was "a Roma gypsy", nevertheless he did look a bit sheepish on GB News last night when Emma's victory was discussed.

 

[Staines R's]

The emphasis is not subconscious, it's deliberate and ironic. It's a celebration of the fact that she's a shining example of the positive impacts of immigration and a two-finger salute to those that complain about it in other circumstances.

But by you feeling the need to talk about someone’s race and nationality, surely by doing so you differentiate ‘them from us’ ?

Im not saying you meant to be racist, that would be absurd…however it could be said that by posts like this (and the others the original author mentions) could be one of the causes of racism, as it seeks to emphasise our differences.

Belonging to anything is absurd and I’m now beginning to wonder why

 

[Willhoops]

But by you feeling the need to talk about someone’s race and nationality, surely by doing so you differentiate ‘them from us’ ?

Im not saying you meant to be racist, that would be absurd…however it could be said that by posts like this (and the others the original author mentions) could be one of the causes of racism, as it seeks to emphasise our differences.

Belonging to anything is absurd and I’m now beginning to wonder why

Possibly highlighting these differences have long been established by areas of the media and certain public figures for years when it’s either a bad news story or to embed distrust. Farage is prime example saying something on the lines of not wanting to have a bunch of Romanian neighbours. Surely suggesting that being Romanian is a negative? Then celebrating the child of a Romanian immigrant to the U.K.

Certainly not saying you here, but immigrants legal or otherwise have been demonised for decades by people. The whole it’s only illegals that bother people, seems to be a newish one in my experience.

 

[Staines R's]

Leading on from the current debate on here and reading some great opinions from posters like @Stroller, @Goldhawk-Road and @sb_73, amongst others who I genuinely respect but don’t always agree.

Isn’t this whole concept of ‘belonging’ rather silly and bizarre ?
I mean whether it’s belonging to Britain, the EU, your race, your religion…even our football team……isn’t it all just rather pointless and in the end harmful to all of us ?
Is it just that us as human beings inherently feel the need to belong to something….anything….that somehow gives us some kind of identity, and possibly superiority over others who aren’t in our gang ?

Any opinions for me to think about ?

Sorry if I might be rambling bollox but it gets me through the long runs to think about this stuff

 

[Staines R's]

Possibly highlighting these differences have long been established by areas of the media and certain public figures for years when it’s either a bad news story or to embed distrust. Farage is prime example saying something on the lines of not wanting to have a bunch of Romanian neighbours. Surely suggesting that being Romanian is a negative? Then celebrating the child of a Romanian immigrant to the U.K.

Certainly not saying you here, but immigrants legal or otherwise have been demonised for decades by people. The whole it’s only illegals that bother people, seems to be a newish one in my experience.

Good post and opinion

You could very well have something there Wills

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Leading on from the current debate on here and reading some great opinions from posters like @Stroller, @Goldhawk-Road and @sb_73, amongst others who I genuinely respect but don’t always agree.

Isn’t this whole concept of ‘belonging’ rather silly and bizarre ?
I mean whether it’s belonging to Britain, the EU, your race, your religion…even our football team……isn’t it all just rather pointless and in the end harmful to all of us ?
Is it just that us as human beings inherently feel the need to belong to something….anything….that somehow gives us some kind of identity, and possibly superiority over others who aren’t in our gang ?

Any opinions for me to think about ?

Sorry if I might be rambling bollox but it gets me through the long runs to think about this stuff

In order to test out your theory, Stainsey, may I suggest you go to the next Chelsea home game, and see if you feel the same warm sense of belonging that you do at LR

 

[Staines R's]

In order to test out your theory, Stainsey, may I suggest you go to the next Chelsea home game, and see if you feel the same warm sense of belonging that you do at LR

But that’s part of it though…..what makes us feel we ‘belong’ to QPR and them Chelsea…..but following England away it was all English together ?
Again….it’s all rather bizarre when you really think about it

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Leading on from the current debate on here and reading some great opinions from posters like @Stroller, @Goldhawk-Road and @sb_73, amongst others who I genuinely respect but don’t always agree.

Isn’t this whole concept of ‘belonging’ rather silly and bizarre ?
I mean whether it’s belonging to Britain, the EU, your race, your religion…even our football team……isn’t it all just rather pointless and in the end harmful to all of us ?
Is it just that us as human beings inherently feel the need to belong to something….anything….that somehow gives us some kind of identity, and possibly superiority over others who aren’t in our gang ?

Any opinions for me to think about ?

Sorry if I might be rambling bollox but it gets me through the long runs to think about this stuff

I think the challenging thing isn't saying that 'belonging' is silly, wether or not that is to a race, a football club, a member organisation or a class. The challenging (and imo better) thing to do is to try and work out how we can feel a sense of togetherness and collective belonging despite our brilliant differences, recognising that belonging to sub groups is an increasing reality. Without wanting to go too deep, as I don't have loads of time for a discussion today, I think a lot of this links back to the diminishing roles of national organisations such as the church (or on a smaller scale, Scouts, WI, the BBC etc), which did bring different people together regularly and with shared purpose. Society is more individualistic than ever, with everyone having bespoke social media feeds, or their own choice of thousands of TV programmes etc. It all feeds into a sense of belonging on a smaller scale, which can create tensions within a larger society.

This is the main reason I'm such a staunch royalist - I think it gives us a collective belonging in the way very little else does. Maybe only England in a Euros/World Cup compares.

Sorry, load of rubbish probably and not read it back as rushing and likely incoherent.

 

[sb_73]

Leading on from the current debate on here and reading some great opinions from posters like @Stroller, @Goldhawk-Road and @sb_73, amongst others who I genuinely respect but don’t always agree.

Isn’t this whole concept of ‘belonging’ rather silly and bizarre ?
I mean whether it’s belonging to Britain, the EU, your race, your religion…even our football team……isn’t it all just rather pointless and in the end harmful to all of us ?
Is it just that us as human beings inherently feel the need to belong to something….anything….that somehow gives us some kind of identity, and possibly superiority over others who aren’t in our gang ?

Any opinions for me to think about ?

Sorry if I might be rambling bollox but it gets me through the long runs to think about this stuff

According to some academics - philosophers, historians, economists - and most eloquently explained by Yuval Noah Harari in his book Sapiens, all these things we think we ‘belong to’ - countries, companies, religions, political ideologies, football fandom, money - are the results of our collective imagination. They don’t really exist, but we need to invent them, because without them we have no way to cooperate above clan level. We can only properly ‘know’ about 150 people, know them well enough to trust them. Beyond that we need to find things in common with relative strangers in order to trust them and cooperate with them to get stuff done. So if you are wandering in the desert and meet someone who shares the same religion as you, you have the basis for trust. Likewise if you are in Hammersmith and bump into an Rs fan. The chances of us having this virtual conversation without the common bond of supporting a football team are precisely zero.

I completely buy in to this theory. Of course it has big benefits - allowing us to cooperate sometimes on an almost global scale, invent and distribute things like vaccines. But it also has massive downsides - competing imaginary collective identities clash, most obviously in the cases of religions, ideologies and countries and hundreds of millions have died as a result of the needless violence that results. In my opinion these particular vehicles for cooperation have outgrown their usefulness and are holding us back, dividing us, rather than helping to build trust. I’m not holding my breath but I’d love to see them fade away. Of course, they and the other collective imaginings are very powerful, because most people do believe that they exist in concrete reality, like a table or a tree, rather than solely in our heads by collective agreement.

No original thinking here on my part. It’s why I think countries, and blind loyalty to any of these things, as useful as they can be, are ridiculous. In the case of QPR I can’t help it, but at least I’m aware of the absurdity.

Of course this is philosophy rather than politics, perhaps we should open the ultimate pretentious thread on it? (Not really)

 

[Staines R's]

According to some academics - philosophers, historians, economists - and most eloquently explained by Yuval Noah Harari in his book Sapiens, all these things we think we ‘belong to’ - countries, companies, religions, political ideologies, football fandom, money - are the results of our collective imagination. They don’t really exist, but we need to invent them, because without them we have no way to cooperate above clan level. We can only properly ‘know’ about 150 people, know them well enough to trust them. Beyond that we need to find things in common with relative strangers in order to trust them and cooperate with them to get stuff done. So if you are wandering in the desert and meet someone who shares the same religion as you, you have the basis for trust. Likewise if you are in Hammersmith and bump into an Rs fan. The chances of us having this virtual conversation without the common bond of supporting a football team are precisely zero.

I completely buy in to this theory. Of course it has big benefits - allowing us to cooperate sometimes on an almost global scale, invent and distribute things like vaccines. But it also has massive downsides - competing imaginary collective identities clash, most obviously in the cases of religions, ideologies and countries and hundreds of millions have died as a result of the needless violence that results. In my opinion these particular vehicles for cooperation have outgrown their usefulness and are holding us back, dividing us, rather than helping to build trust. I’m not holding my breath but I’d love to see them fade away. Of course, they and the other collective imaginings are very powerful, because most people do believe that they exist in concrete reality, like a table or a tree, rather than solely in our heads by collective agreement.

No original thinking here on my part. It’s why I think countries, and blind loyalty to any of these things, as useful as they can be, is ridiculous. In the case of QPR I can’t help it, but at least I’m aware of the absurdity.

Of course this is philosophy rather than politics, perhaps we should open the ultimate pretentious thread on it? (Not really)

Brilliant….and yes that does make sense. Have you read the book you talked about ? Worth a read ? Seems to sum up my thoughts pretty well

 

[Staines R's]

I think the challenging thing isn't saying that 'belonging' is silly, wether or not that is to a race, a football club, a member organisation or a class. The challenging (and imo better) thing to do is to try and work out how we can feel a sense of togetherness and collective belonging despite our brilliant differences, recognising that belonging to sub groups is an increasing reality. Without wanting to go too deep, as I don't have loads of time for a discussion today, I think a lot of this links back to the diminishing roles of national organisations such as the church (or on a smaller scale, Scouts, WI, the BBC etc), which did bring different people together regularly and with shared purpose. Society is more individualistic than ever, with everyone having bespoke social media feeds, or their own choice of thousands of TV programmes etc. It all feeds into a sense of belonging on a smaller scale, which can create tensions within a larger society.

This is the main reason I'm such a staunch royalist - I think it gives us a collective belonging in the way very little else does. Maybe only England in a Euros/World Cup compares.

Sorry, load of rubbish probably and not read it back as rushing and likely incoherent.

Some very good points…..like you I’m having to quickly look through today, thus the short answers but once read it’s all getting me thinking

 

[surreyhoop]

I think the challenging thing isn't saying that 'belonging' is silly, wether or not that is to a race, a football club, a member organisation or a class. The challenging (and imo better) thing to do is to try and work out how we can feel a sense of togetherness and collective belonging despite our brilliant differences, recognising that belonging to sub groups is an increasing reality. Without wanting to go too deep, as I don't have loads of time for a discussion today, I think a lot of this links back to the diminishing roles of national organisations such as the church (or on a smaller scale, Scouts, WI, the BBC etc), which did bring different people together regularly and with shared purpose. Society is more individualistic than ever, with everyone having bespoke social media feeds, or their own choice of thousands of TV programmes etc. It all feeds into a sense of belonging on a smaller scale, which can create tensions within a larger society.

This is the main reason I'm such a staunch royalist - I think it gives us a collective belonging in the way very little else does. Maybe only England in a Euros/World Cup compares.

Sorry, load of rubbish probably and not read it back as rushing and likely incoherent.

My six pence worth on this is that I worry a bit about how we will come together when the Queen dies. She has been a constant over the decades. I fear our sense of unitedness as a nation with a respected role model as head will crumble and will cause widespread concerns. Anyway hopefully many more years, but just giving my opinion. Charles really is not the same.

 

[sb_73]

Brilliant….and yes that does make sense. Have you read the book you talked about ? Worth a read ? Seems to sum up my thoughts pretty well

Yes I have read it and so have millions of others, it was a bestseller a few years ago. It is definitely worth reading and I hope you find the time. He’s very good at providing an explanation of the way things are. Bit less convincing, for me, on the future which he addresses in other books, and he has a tendency to repetition, but Sapiens, at least, I would highly recommend. I would class it as apolitical.

One of the many downsides of social media is the tendency to express things in short hand, and judge others’ views based on a couple of hastily typed sentences, often written without much thought. It’s good to go for the ‘long read’ option when you have time. Also I like, when I can be arsed, to look up the authors of articles posted on here, to see where they are coming from, what their agenda is. Often enlightening and saves me a lot of time in the long run.

 

[Staines R's]

Yes I have read it and so have millions of others, it was a bestseller a few years ago. It is definitely worth reading and I hope you find the time. He’s very good at providing an explanation of the way things are. Bit less convincing, for me, on the future which he addresses in other books, and he has a tendency to repetition, but Sapiens, at least, I would highly recommend. I would class it as apolitical.

One of the many downsides of social media is the tendency to express things in short hand, and judge others’ views based on a couple of hastily typed sentences, often written without much thought. It’s good to go for the ‘long read’ option when you have time. Also I like, when I can be arsed, to look up the authors of articles posted on here, to see where they are coming from, what their agenda is. Often enlightening and saves me a lot of time in the long run.

Will definitely get it on the kindle as it seems from what you are saying, to be pretty much in line with my thinking….however when I get to read it is another matter entirely, Sadly I never seem to get anytime these days to sit down and actually read, instead finding myself falling asleep on the sofa to some film or random documentary.
My own fault entirely and something I really should address

 

[sb_73]

Will definitely get it on the kindle as it seems from what you are saying, to be pretty much in line with my thinking….however when I get to read it is another matter entirely, Sadly I never seem to get anytime these days to sit down and actually read, instead finding myself falling asleep on the sofa to some film or random documentary.
My own fault entirely and something I really should address

Takes me months to read a book nowadays. Fall asleep after a few pages no matter how riveting the book is, unless I am sitting upright at a table.

 

[Staines R's]

Takes me months to read a book nowadays. Fall asleep after a few pages no matter how riveting the book is.

Is that an age thing ? I’m exactly the same in front of the TV. Could be something really interesting to me but always find myself waking up at midnight long after it’s ended.
Gonna try and re-watch “City of Life and Death” tonight as I’ve just picked up a copy for £1 in CEX after lending my copy to someone who I’ve long forgotten….got to try hard to stay awake.

 

[Staines R's]

In other news….a Trans woman, formerly a special forces US marine beats up and defeats a woman in a televised MMA fight, all in the name of “progress”

The world has gone ****ing mad

 

[sb_73]

Is that an age thing ? I’m exactly the same in front of the TV. Could be something really interesting to me but always find myself waking up at midnight long after it’s ended.
Gonna try and re-watch “City of Life and Death” tonight as I’ve just picked up a copy for £1 in CEX after lending my copy to someone who I’ve long forgotten….got to try hard to stay awake.

I’m sure it’s age (I’m older than you matey) but also distractions. I spend too much time on the tablet, when I could be reading a book.

 

[qprbeth]

Leading on from the current debate on here and reading some great opinions from posters like @Stroller, @Goldhawk-Road and @sb_73, amongst others who I genuinely respect but don’t always agree.

Isn’t this whole concept of ‘belonging’ rather silly and bizarre ?
I mean whether it’s belonging to Britain, the EU, your race, your religion…even our football team……isn’t it all just rather pointless and in the end harmful to all of us ?
Is it just that us as human beings inherently feel the need to belong to something….anything….that somehow gives us some kind of identity, and possibly superiority over others who aren’t in our gang ?

Any opinions for me to think about ?

Sorry if I might be rambling bollox but it gets me through the long runs to think about this stuff

Stainsey... I feel very "akin" to you because we are both Rs...and we both used to go to see bands like the levellers and NMA etc.
That is what belonging is....having a common tie


To us it is music and football.
To other people is it is very different things....but it puts us in a "tribe".

Can be a good thing, it can be a very good thing.... reverse is also true

 

[bobmid]

In which case Jamie Oliver should be prosecuted for promoting a healthy Mediterranean diet, the racist bastard

That **** should be prosecuted for everything and anything