Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
'
The big issue there Goldie is time. There's no way they can renegotiate it by 31 October - so if it is going well and he needs another short extension to get it over the line will people accept that? I imagine most of the leave supporters on here probably would but it's a risky strategy for him.

If the Irish back-stop is removed, Dan, so checks take place away from border, it may be the withdrawal agreement can be revived.

If not, the answer may be Heads of Agreement. A non-binding document of intent dealing with the central issues. That may be enough for Parliament if it includes a tight timescale up to formal agreement.
 
Worth following up on this Goldie because I suspect that suspicion of German motives has a lot to do with Brexit. To suggest that European domination is in the German DNA is, presumably, based on what happened in the past - by the same token can I say that the quest for World domination is set in the British DNA because of the history of the empire ? If you use history in this way where do you stop ? Objectively Germany has a proportion of the members of the EU Parliament, based on its population - which could be outvoted by any 2 countries. They are under represented in both the EU Commission, and the EU negotiating team over Brexit. They constitute 22% of the population of the EU, and pay in 25% of the budget (not a great difference). So where do you get the idea that Germany wants to rule Europe - other than by reference to the actions of people who are mostly dead ? I agree that Germany has an export/import imbalance, and that this is not good for the EU (nor is it good for German spending power) - I also agree that Germany is dragging it's feet on Co2 reduction - but I fail to see how Germany is deliberately trying to dominate Europe. There is no sense of 'destiny' in this - the vast majority of Germans are only interested in their own living standards (pretty much the same as everyone else), and are relatively uninterested in what happens elsewhere. There is no 'German DNA' Goldie - we are not talking biology here.

Well, first, I was not talking literally about German biological DNA, Cologne as you well know!

Historically, neither the UK nor Germany want to dominate the world, but I do think Germany want to make Europe in its own image - and some aspects of that image are to be commended - industrially for example, and fiscal and financial management. The cynicism starts to come in, as Sooper said in an earlier post, when you have a German Defence minister parachuted in from nowhere, to the top EU job. Where Greece is encouraged by euro rules to buy German goods, and then hit hard by German banking advisors when they find they can't repay debts. Where the Commission in Brussels is seen, essentially, as a front for Berlin.

If there is to be a deal with the UK, and as I say, I'd be gob-smacked if there isn't one, the motivation will come from Berlin. Macron will be told to get in line and will. That is realpolitik.
 
Worth following up on this Goldie because I suspect that suspicion of German motives has a lot to do with Brexit. To suggest that European domination is in the German DNA is, presumably, based on what happened in the past - by the same token can I say that the quest for World domination is set in the British DNA because of the history of the empire ? If you use history in this way where do you stop ? Objectively Germany has a proportion of the members of the EU Parliament, based on its population - which could be outvoted by any 2 countries. They are under represented in both the EU Commission, and the EU negotiating team over Brexit. They constitute 22% of the population of the EU, and pay in 25% of the budget (not a great difference). So where do you get the idea that Germany wants to rule Europe - other than by reference to the actions of people who are mostly dead ? I agree that Germany has an export/import imbalance, and that this is not good for the EU (nor is it good for German spending power) - I also agree that Germany is dragging it's feet on Co2 reduction - but I fail to see how Germany is deliberately trying to dominate Europe. There is no sense of 'destiny' in this - the vast majority of Germans are only interested in their own living standards (pretty much the same as everyone else), and are relatively uninterested in what happens elsewhere. There is no 'German DNA' Goldie - we are not talking biology here.

It was an article with a German europhile in which he made that claim re. DNA. I’ll try to find it later.
 
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Well, first, I was not talking literally about German biological DNA, Cologne as you well know!

Historically, neither the UK nor Germany want to dominate the world, but I do think Germany want to make Europe in its own image - and some aspects of that image are to be commended - industrially for example, and fiscal and financial management. The cynicism starts to come in, as Sooper said in an earlier post, when you have a German Defence minister parachuted in from nowhere, to the top EU job. Where Greece is encouraged by euro rules to buy German goods, and then hit hard by German banking advisors when they find they can't repay debts. Where the Commission in Brussels is seen, essentially, as a front for Berlin.

If there is to be a deal with the UK, and as I say, I'd be gob-smacked if there isn't one, the motivation will come from Berlin. Macron will be told to get in line and will. That is realpolitik.

I don't understand what deal you think can be done. How can the Irish border issue be resolved by 31st October?
 
I don't understand what deal you think can be done. How can the Irish border issue be resolved by 31st October?

The UK won't put up a hard border. The EU are already looking at a technological solution to the border to protect the Single Market. If the EU offered a time-limited backstop, I'm sure the UK would consider it
 

You mean when Theresa May and Ollie Robbins were apologising to the EU for leaving, and begging for an extension?

Even the EU admit they never took Theresa May's weak claim of "No deal is better than a bad deal", and Robbins's sympathies were all with the EU.

The difference between then and now is vast. The EU look at Boris's team and know he's serious
 
You mean when Theresa May and Ollie Robbins were apologising to the EU for leaving, and begging for an extension?

Even the EU admit they never took Theresa May's weak claim of "No deal is better than a bad deal", and Robbins's sympathies were all with the EU.

The difference between then and now is vast. The EU look at Boris's team and know he's serious

I mean the time the right wing of the Tories decided the agreed deal wasn’t economically damaging enough for their bets against the pound.

There’s nothing serious about his bluster. The EU have been remarkably consistent for 3+ years while we’ve come out with endless nonsense rhetoric rather than hold our hands up and just admit Brexit is a ****ing stupid idea the masses were conned into.
 
The UK won't put up a hard border. The EU are already looking at a technological solution to the border to protect the Single Market. If the EU offered a time-limited backstop, I'm sure the UK would consider it

Supposing they did offer a time limit, 5 years say. What would Johnson's ERG masters have to say, I wonder? Such fun.
 
This is it in a nutshell. The difference of the past few days where there is positive leadership and a clear goal, none of the pathetic grovelling of a Remainer PM trying to please the MPs who would ultimately stop at nothing to thwart her at every step and ending up with a deal that was worse than staying in.

I've always thought the EU was a good idea that got way above itself, a free market that morphed into a monolith that wanted to control every facet of it's members 'freedom' to the point you were subservient. We'll be well rid of it before it destroys itself. Just look at those who were recently 'elected' without opposition but only just, failed German minister Ursula von der Leyen as President of the EU Commission, who was 'nominated' behind closed doors by the European Council without any opposition, a sidekick of Merkel and a rabid federalist. Also Charles Michel selected as the new President of the European Council without opposition, the Belgian is a close ally of Macron, and look how well he's doing in France, so once again there's a strong Franco/German grip on the top posts. It seems the majority of MEPs are furious with what has been foisted on them and point out they wouldn't accept this sort of outcome in their own countries, so why is it being allowed to happen?

Anyone who thinks this is the way forward must be deluded, Europe is headed for recession so there is no better time to jump the sinking ship...

Another superb post.
 
There’s a lot in there. In no particular order...

1, I’m not seeking to blame the EU if there are short-term acute economic difficulties for the UK. It is the UK that’s seeking to leave after all; not the EU expelling them. All I’m saying is that if part of the EU’s strategy is to inflict stark economic hardship on a leaving state in order to deter others from following suit, then shame on them.

2, Yes, in my opinion May’s exit plan was a better outcome than no deal, to the extent that I understood the minutiae of her proposal. I’m with the lovely Miss Caroline Flint, however, in that we must honour the outcome of the referendum and leave. The shame sits with the MPs of all liveries for forcing us down the no deal route in their pathetic and undemocratic attempts to reverse the (slim, but no less a) majority opinion of the electorate. I know the response to this from you, Oslo, Watford etc. so let’s not bother, eh?

3, Even with the prospect of lower tax revenues and a deficit to reduce a few years ago it was still the view of them in the red corner that we should spend our way out with infrastructure projects and the like. Now I’d imagine that policy doesn’t sit well with the current argument so is abandoned?

4, We have no idea whether there’d be an immediate downturn or not. There might be a honeymoon period of rising prosperity for all we know. If I was in government right now I’d be sucking up to the Yanks, Japs, Indians and (maybe the) Chinese etc. to create the right environment for their inward investment. I’d be prepared to offer tax incentives in return for jobs, which themselves will swell the tax coffers with PAYE, NIC and VAT as spending in the economy is always the key. How hard can it be when you’re Eton/Oxbridge educated and running a show that’s unencumbered by European red tape and protocol to drum up deals that deliver this? Of course, we’ll shape some deals well and some not so, but put an expiry date, caveats and parameters on such things and you’re away. Christ, I could do these and I was educated in a bucket of horse ****!

5, It wasn’t just Tory Brexitremists (good one!) that scuppered May’s deal. Corbyn’s Commissars have taken three years to declare where they think they are in the whole shooting match, and that was just a shameless ‘about turn’ to win votes back from the Nambies after recent electoral mailings. Very strange, seeing that the blue collar heartlands that used to pay their wages voted to leave. Further evidence, should any be needed, that they’ve abandoned these heartlands and are very much in the thrall of the Islington Champagne Socialist Brigade.

6, Back to ‘can do’. We all know that influential people talking doom & gloom becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s a nice lazy way for political and economic commentators to appear to be authorities on their subjects. If there was more positivity about this we’d fare much better. Talk us down continuously on the telly and people get frightened, batten down the hatches and, sure as eggs is eggs, you get the worst possible outcome. Sadly, you can’t run two realities and fast forward to assess their respective outcomes, but just because one decision is less certain than the other doesn’t mean it’s outcome is likely to be worse.

Bloody hell, you've got to stop now!
These posts are just too good. <applause><applause><applause>
 
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You mean when Theresa May and Ollie Robbins were apologising to the EU for leaving, and begging for an extension?

Even the EU admit they never took Theresa May's weak claim of "No deal is better than a bad deal", and Robbins's sympathies were all with the EU.

The difference between then and now is vast. The EU look at Boris's team and know he's serious
I meant when the then Tory prime minister had a deal agreed but it was knocked back by parliment. The EU never renegotiated any last minute deal. Now we have a bigger clown in charge and you expect then to take him seriously. Ffs
 
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Supposing they did offer a time limit, 5 years say. What would Johnson's ERG masters have to say, I wonder? Such fun.
It's not a backstop if it has a time limit. Everyone knows that. Nobody has come up with a solution to this most important issue. But if we just keep believing and have optimism then it might just vanish into thin air!
 
I mean the time the right wing of the Tories decided the agreed deal wasn’t economically damaging enough for their bets against the pound.

There’s nothing serious about his bluster. The EU have been remarkably consistent for 3+ years while we’ve come out with endless nonsense rhetoric rather than hold our hands up and just admit Brexit is a ****ing stupid idea the masses were conned into.

Those right wing Tories voted in the same way as your Mr Corbyn for a terrible deal negotiated by a Remain prime minister and pro-European advisors