Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Interesting point. Neither have any of the true spokespersons of the will of the people because none of them had the courage to stand to put themselves forward to take on the so-called "traitorous weak bitch". JRM may or may not be an elected head of a fringe group. DD and BJ were government ministers who have chosen to do nothing until they left and then constantly snipe from the sidelines without putting anything forward that offers a solution apart from saying we should stand firm but without quite ever telling us that a 'NO DEAL' option is the best alternative. How can anyone take them seriously when they sell it in such underwhelming terms?
Also you've missed the point. It is an elected government which had a mandate albeit by a very slight majority. However following last years' shenanigans which established conclusively that it is a matter for Parliamentary approval and the elected government having failed to put forward a deal to be voted upon in 21 months time is now of the essence for the executive to do it's constitutional duty to put forward its proposal to Parliament to deliver on that mandate. That leaves three options for the government surely.
1 Stand by what TM (alone apparently) sees to be the way forward but be prepared to take consequences of failure to deliver on its mandate.
2 Adopt a more pragmatic approach and see what concessions can be made to her vision to guarantee that she can get enough cross party support to get her deal over the line. This is what the current noises form Westminster suggest to be what is happening. Pity that it's taken this long.
3 Accept that she has failed and resign but that will inevitably lead to an extension of time by consent of the EU and either a general election or a second referendum with a clearer better defined number of options and method of calculating what the will of the people actually is
we have to do whatever the young people want
its their future after all
its their future after all
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Interesting you posted this...
I have been hearing for some time from 'Remoaners' that the young will vote to remain yet time after time I am hearing the opposite. Two weeks ago on SkyNews they had the young voters on, discussing Brexit. It was interesting to hear they are split as well. One young lad said "more of his friends would vote to leave".
I bet Chuka and Co will be crying in 'Bitter central' after hearing that.
It was also interesting to hear one of the remainers this week again on Sky, saying if there was a peoples vote Leave would probably win with a bigger majority. I can see why they have gone quiet on that front now and want an election.
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"Accept that she has failed and resign but that will inevitably lead to an extension of time by consent of the EU and either a general election or a second referendum with a clearer better defined number of options and method of calculating what the will of the people actually is".
What a great idea!
Can't see what point I missed. May is putting her deal before Parliament on Tuesday, which deals with your second para. Of you numbering, 1 looks dead meat. May will not get her deal through - it's crap. I can't see her resigning or agreeing to a general election. She'll go back to Brussels and say - told you so. Brussels will have to decide whether the EU can offer something more to be put to Parliament, and yes, May will continue to seek cross party support. If Brussels won't do that, they may offer an extension predicated on a second referendum. Hopefully that will be turned down flat by the UK. Then it's no-deal, and in managing it, the UK would work with Brussels to get the best arrangement for all parties.
Have you just made that up about Chope, Strolls?! First time I've heard anyone state we owe Brexit to Bercow!
Theresa May has indeed made a pig's ear of the negotiations. But if Bercow stands in the way of resolving this mess in order to reverse the referendum result and keep us in the EU, I predict big trouble...
Wot, no one commenting on the top news story of the day? Sir Andy Murray choking up because of his poorly hip. Nothing against Andy, he has been brilliant in the strongest era ever for men’s tennis, it’s a shame that injury will end his career (especially when Federer has shown that with carful judgement you can play at the top level into your 80s) and I bet he’s mortified that his press conference is the lead story on every news bulletin. But why the **** is it the lead story, all ****ing day?
Also the Saudi girl who escaped her family and renounced Islam might be on her way to Canada to claim asylum. Good for her, given that the law in Saudi and other hardline Islamic countries is to punish apostasy with death (even if it’s not carried out often). I think every single woman living in an Islamic dominated country has no need to prove that they are oppressed and entitled to asylum, whether they are apostate or not. And a hint to Iranian blokes sailing over the Channel. Renounce Islam, and I don’t see how anyone claiming to support democracy and individual freedom can insist that you are sent home.
Also the Saudi girl who escaped her family and renounced Islam might be on her way to Canada to claim asylum. Good for her, given that the law in Saudi and other hardline Islamic countries is to punish apostasy with death (even if it’s not carried out often). I think every single woman living in an Islamic dominated country has no need to prove that they are oppressed and entitled to asylum, whether they are apostate or not. And a hint to Iranian blokes sailing over the Channel. Renounce Islam, and I don’t see how anyone claiming to support democracy and individual freedom can insist that you are sent home.
Absolutely true about Bercow allowing an amendment, against convention, that paved the way for the EU referendum. Chope (who is a complete ****, by the way) commended him for it in the face of the furore over his allowing the Grieve amendment. Bercow, a Tory lest it be forgotten, is a decent man doing a very good job in almost impossible circumstances, in my opinion.
Lammy is the only bloke I am listening to in the commons nowadays
It reminds me of the culture around British Leyand when they seriously thought the Mini Metro was a match for the VW Golf
It reminds me of the culture around British Leyand when they seriously thought the Mini Metro was a match for the VW Golf
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I'll take your word on all of that...except that Bercow is a decent man. He's a known bully and there's plenty of evidence. He was giving out orders today, and people are already starting to say, why should I comply when he breaks rules with abandon?
He didn't break any rules, he broke from convention. Just as he did in 2013 when he allowed the referendum amendment, without which it would never have happened.
It's like the BBC isn't it? Everybody thinks it's biased towards the other side.
Decent man!
You are on a wind up Stroller. You need to take your 'lefty tinted' glasses off. That comment proves you are either baiting Goldie or you really know nothing.
Bercow is a horrid man who has bullied people including clerks.
Ex Black Rod David Leakey described John Bercow’s behaviour as “unworthy of someone in such public office”.
He called Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the Commons a “stupid woman”.
He decided to stay on as Speaker to oversee Brexit process when people wanted him to quit... I wonder why?
And there will be proof at some point that he has covered up stuff, especially the bullying claims.
He is far from 'decent'.
Pity, I expected more. You've glossed over the first point entirely. Is that a concession? The point you missed (by a country mile) is that the executive is not entitled to mess everyone about in Parliament. It is for them to propose deals which lead to legislation and for Parliament to vote on it, within the time frame it has set for itself. On a subject as contentious as this and a working majority which she has unravelled completely she should have adopted a more conciliatory approach to the task required of her. The Speaker is a servant of Parliament not the lackey of the executive
I do agree that no1 looks almost impossible but until this week she has shown little evidence of doing the listening to contrary opinions she had promised before she won her vote of confidence. If she fails to agree an acceptable number of proposals, the more conventional approach surely would be for any honourable politician to take it to the people. Why do you think she won't? Stupidity, lack of honour or appreciation of the correct course of action or fear of the realisation that she might have buried her party or Brexit entirely by the ineptness of her leadership to date?
Your fourth option is clearly your hope but there is precious little evidence that the EU has had to shift its ground much at all so far in order to win the negotiations hands down.
You seem to be tying yourself up in knots in your first paragraph with a number of different issues. May's government is putting forward a deal to be voted on by Parliament. Under the terms of an amendment, I think by Grieve, if the deal failed to win Parliament's approval, May had 21 days to put another proposal forward. May delayed the vote until after Christmas. Grieve tabled another amendment to reduce the post-deal vote to 3 days. This second amendment breached Parliamentary rules and convention. The clerks in Parliament, who are procedural experts, advised Bercow accordingly. He has ignored them and set a dangerous precedent. And the reason he ignored them is that he is not impartial as he should be. He's taking on huge powers than no speaker has ever done before. Betty Boothroyd, former highly regarded speaker from Labour ranks, has said Bercow has been dishonest and should resign.
Your second para looking for a second referendum. It won't happen. May is against it. Corbyn against it. It would be highly divisive for this country. There is no majority support for a second referendum in Parliament.
Third para - the EU has not been tested. It has sat back while May came with her begging bowl, and it threw a few scraps at her. Until now, there has been nothing for the 27 to argue over. But a no-deal is on another planet. Ireland would suffer hugely, more than the UK. Holland, Denmark and Belgium are anticipating laying off tens of thousands of workers. Germany's economy will take a huge hit when it's on the edge of recession. You must surely see the difference between May's deal which massively favours the EU, and a no-deal which the EU simply cannot afford to let happen. This crap from the EU about - you have our deal and we won't shift is what anyone says in negotiations - and when the deal looks to be going south, they shift, they haggle. The EU has form on this approach, it's done it time and time again.