Off Topic The Politics Thread

[GoldhawkRoad]

Your last sentence is the core motivation behind Brexit I think (though I still dislike this ‘destiny’ malarkey), clearly driven by the heart, and fair enough. The financial justification (look how much we will get back from stopping EU contributions) is frankly peanuts (see my reply to Stainsey) and the economic one just as, if not more, speculative than the doom and gloom merchants. Why not just stick with ‘getting control of laws and borders is worth it?’

Loads of red herrings in your reply about travel etc (but one fact is that without free movement Britons young and not so young will not be able to work or study

in the EU so easily). My point was that a ‘few years to bed in’ is fine for us in the old gits club, we have some feather bedding to take the pain, but a completely different proposition if you are young and at the bottom of the pile now, in purely economic terms. The OBR predictions of low growth and productivity for years to come even before we know the nature of our exit is depressing. A high employment, low wage economy is better than a high unemployment one, but hardly something to aspire to.


Sure, I just think that if we placed more emphasis on obligations we might actually uphold a few more human and animal rights.

I wouldn't call the net contribution billions we pay to the EU peanuts, and remember, on the amounts we get back, we don't have any control of what it is spent on. Brussels decides.

What's your authority for saying that post-Brexit, young Brits will not be able to work or study in the EU? No-EU citizens can work and/or study in the EU presently, so Brits would be in that position, if not better, depending on what the Brexit negotiations bash out re European citizens rights.

PS just re-read your broken para. You say "not be able to work and study in the EU so easily". OK, again, depends on May's negotiations but on travel, producing a passport isn't so difficult. I studied in France before the Common Market. France was pleased to take my money, and I doubt much will change

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I wouldn't call the net contribution billions we pay to the EU peanuts, and remember, on the amounts we get back, we don't have any control of what it is spent on. Brussels decides.

What's your authority for saying that post-Brexit, young Brits will not be able to work or study in the EU? No-EU citizens can work and/or study in the EU presently, so Brits would be in that position, if not better, depending on what the Brexit negotiations bash out re European citizens rights.

 

[sb_73]

I wouldn't call the net contribution billions we pay to the EU peanuts, and remember, on the amounts we get back, we don't have any control of what it is spent on. Brussels decides.

What's your authority for saying that post-Brexit, young Brits will not be able to work or study in the EU? No-EU citizens can work and/or study in the EU presently, so Brits would be in that position, if not better, depending on what the Brexit negotiations bash out re European citizens rights.

I did not say that. I said that in the absence of freedom of movement, which is surely inevitable, it will be more difficult. If we impose quotas and visa requirements on EU as well as non EU citizens who want to live/work here, surely they will do the same to us? At the moment I can hop on a plane to anywhere in the EU and have 3 months to find a job. I can apply for a job anywhere in the EU and not have to worry about having to jump through government hoops if I am successful in that application. A friends daughter has been doing an internship in a company in Darmstadt - she got the offer and went. In a couple of years she will need some paperwork. That paperwork is an added cost for the employing company, and might put them off non EU internships completely. At the moment a student can apply to study at any EU university and pay the same fees as the locals. Presumably it will get much more expensive. In Germany there are no tuition fees for EU citizens, but they are introducing them for non EU students. Plus non EU students need a visa.

I think the case for Brexit is undermined by claims that absolutely everything about it is brilliant. Stick to the arguments about control of laws and borders, which is the strong ground.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I did not say that. I said that in the absence of freedom of movement, which is surely inevitable, it will be more difficult. If we impose quotas and visa requirements on EU as well as non EU citizens who want to live/work here, surely they will do the same to us? At the moment I can hop on a plane to anywhere in the EU and have 3 months to find a job. I can apply for a job anywhere in the EU and not have to worry about having to jump through government hoops if I am successful in that application. A friends daughter has been doing an internship in a company in Darmstadt - she got the offer and went. In a couple of years she will need some paperwork. That paperwork is an added cost for the employing company, and might put them off non EU internships completely. At the moment a student can apply to study at any EU university and pay the same fees as the locals. Presumably it will get much more expensive. In Germany there are no tuition fees for EU citizens, but they are introducing them for non EU students. Plus non EU students need a visa.

You missed my PS Stan! Your paragraph was broken, and initially I missed the ...so easily.

It may not be so simple, sure. More admin per person, but probably still easier that travelling to the US. We'll have to wait to see what May/Tusk agree.

 

[TootingExcess]

We will still be subject to ECHR and WTO rules and regulations - unless we are going to leave both those as well? The number of people who voted leave solely because they wanted to leave the ECHR is probably quite high - so maybe it should be counted as being included in the Ref.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

We will still be subject to ECHR and WTO rules and regulations - unless we are going to leave both those as well? The number of people who voted leave solely because they wanted to leave the ECHR is probably quite high - so maybe it should be counted as being included in the Ref.

If the Tories win the next election with a reasonable majority, they will probably want to leave the ECHR, and replace it with an English Bill of Human Rights.

 

[TootingExcess]

If the Tories win the next election with a reasonable majority, they will probably want to leave the ECHR, and replace it with an English Bill of Human Rights.

Will we leave the WTO as well do you think? Take back control fully?

 

[Staines R's]

Yes, by Parliament.
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7886

So we pay in £8.1bn annually, or, if you read the notes £7.1bn. In context we spend £122bn a year on the NHS, and well over £810bn total government spending. It’s 1%. A lot of money, but not in the bigger scheme of things. The NHS gets through £8bn in 15 days.

And of course our net contribution is a redistribution of wealth from richer to poorer parts of the EU. Power to the people!

Hmmmm......got me thinking.
With regard to your last paragraph, yeah I can get that, but it still doesn’t sit right with me that there are so many hangers on in Brussels, making a fortune from the EU gravy train, and continue to make a fortune well into retirement from their pensions paid for by us, the European taxpayer.
If you can give a good argument for that then please tell me as that’s the main reason I voted ‘out’....honest question again.

 

[Staines R's]

Yes, sorry. Annual and in Euros.

Thanks mate

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Will we leave the WTO as well do you think? Take back control fully?

Far from leaving WTO, the UK may be relying on it to trade with EU nations if the current talks fail, which is a real possibility given the intransigence we have seen from Brussels. We are a member in our own right and don't need to reapply on Brexit. I've never heard that leaving the WTO was even a possibility for the UK.

 

[QPR Oslo]

Heart came into it, the need for independence, and there were plenty of good brains behind Brexit. Leaving the EU is predicated upon freeing the UK from the restrictive practices of a declining European market, so that it can enter into agreements with countries worldwide, many of them emerging markets. Onerous EU rules prevent this at present. So it amazes me when I hear Remainers say they haven't seen the advantage of Brexit yet - when we haven't even left the EU.

It was clear that it was going to be complicated to get out, that parties would fight like cats in a sack over money, that Ireland would kick-up over borders ( though the taoiseach seems to have his own domestic problems at present) and the UK economy might have a rocky period during and perhaps for a while after leaving/ transition. Before joining the Common Market, the UK had been a successful and independent country for 1000 years. Brexit is a long term project and for me, the first acid test will be about 10 years hence. There's plenty of work for the government to do on the economy, particularly productivity, before then.

What you write about a declining European market is contrary to everything I see in economic news. EU economic performance indicators are all good. UK not good.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

As I said nay moons ago on here, people voted with their hearts not their brains.,

You did indeed and you 100% right

Live on TV (QT) last night Cons Man made it very clear me when he said that 85% of UK GDP goes to debt payments
Average rental price for a house in now over 60% of household income as told by Diane Abbot
She wants to borrow more and spend our way out of trouble

Both parties need reform
The EU needs reform and after Brexitt it will anyway this nation's expense

Thinking Britain is great and wealthy is naive beyond stupidity ... advantages disadvantages is nothing but blind hope from both sides of the vote

As this goes on I am getting more and more certain that the whole thing is a reform exercise

The vote was of course a protest vote and one we will all have to adhere to and make work

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

What you write about a declining European market is contrary to everything I see in economic news. EU economic performance indicators are all good. UK not good.

Totally agree even you ignored the news and stats you can clearly see it for yourselves. I prattle on about France but i see massive difference every 2 weeks
They are building like crazy in Montpellier and Beziers ... loads of tech jobs while in London my colleagues are losing theirs.

Anyone, everyone should understand that the first signs of bad times is when marketing and creative budgets get cut ... only the clever people accelerate their spend at times like these. The UK public has its head in the sand and the answers on here is tell them to F off

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

What you write about a declining European market is contrary to everything I see in economic news. EU economic performance indicators are all good. UK not good.

I agree, the economies of some of the EU countries do appear to be growing now, most coming off low bases having struggled previously. But the amount the UK exports to the EU, as opposed to the rest of the world, is in decline. That's the point I was making.

 

[ELLERS]

What you write about a declining European market is contrary to everything I see in economic news. EU economic performance indicators are all good. UK not good.

That's not exactly correct. I think you are picking up on the German news and how well it's doing. It's not the same for Greece,Italy or some of the others? Unemployment for young is at an all-time high. Not to mention poverty.
http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/n...k_of_poverty_or_social_exclusion#.WhgyvK2caRs
http://www.novinite.com/articles/185399/Bulgarian and Romanian Children - Highest Risk of Poverty in the EU

After reading that maybe the EU should think more 'with their hearts not their brains'.

I have also just listened to the news concerning this:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...huge-debt-brussels-summit-eastern-partnership

As for the Uk indicators, we should all know that they have been wrong in the past.
What we have is a mass press propaganda machine instigated by Brussels and big businesses that are putting out project fear. They fill forums, social media with negative stories to cause maximise concern. People then regurgitate that fear and it spreads.

I was on the understanding that the UK was doing okay in some quarters. What happened to the mass unemployment? I watched Bloomberg yesterday and some top analyst rubbished that all services would leave the city for Paris and Frankfurt. He said "It just won't happen". He went on and said "London is the World leader not just for the EU". "Many countries do business with us and will continue too".

The more I read and listen to stations other than BBC and Sky the more I realize that the EU has taken the P out of us for 40 years and when we leave you will see it disintegrate because it won't change and is just for a select few. The EU's biggest problem will be Russia in the near future not us.

 

[ELLERS]

They are building like crazy in Montpellier and Beziers ...

Bloody hell that will take them years! It took 5 blokes and 5 days to put in a 3ft high plastic bus sign where my house is.
After all their tea breaks, 2-hour lunches and customary strikes, they should be finished by 2040.
I can see it now Montpellier and Beziers financial capitals of the world...
I 'm going to watch the BBC news channel!

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Bloody hell that will take them years! It took 5 blokes and 5 days to put in a 3ft high plastic bus sign where my house is.
After all their tea breaks, 2-hour lunches and customary strikes, they should be finished by 2040.
I can see it now Montpellier and Beziers financial capitals of the world...
I 'm going to watch the BBC news channel!

Beziers is an international road hub now have a look at the map!
The cities I mentioned will not be financial hubs at all

 

[QPR Oslo]

That's not exactly correct. I think you are picking up on the German news and how well it's doing. It's not the same for Greece,Italy or some of the others? Unemployment for young is at an all-time high. Not to mention poverty.
http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/n...k_of_poverty_or_social_exclusion#.WhgyvK2caRs
http://www.novinite.com/articles/185399/Bulgarian and Romanian Children - Highest Risk of Poverty in the EU

After reading that maybe the EU should think more 'with their hearts not their brains'.

I have also just listened to the news concerning this:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...huge-debt-brussels-summit-eastern-partnership

As for the Uk indicators, we should all know that they have been wrong in the past.
What we have is a mass press propaganda machine instigated by Brussels and big businesses that are putting out project fear. They fill forums, social media with negative stories to cause maximise concern. People then regurgitate that fear and it spreads.

I was on the understanding that the UK was doing okay in some quarters. What happened to the mass unemployment? I watched Bloomberg yesterday and some top analyst rubbished that all services would leave the city for Paris and Frankfurt. He said "It just won't happen". He went on and said "London is the World leader not just for the EU". "Many countries do business with us and will continue too".

The more I read and listen to stations other than BBC and Sky the more I realize that the EU has taken the P out of us for 40 years and when we leave you will see it disintegrate because it won't t and is just for a select few. The EU's biggest problem will be Russia in the near future not us.

"German news"? Well not unless BBC, Sky, The Guardian, The Telegraph, and The Independent are all now German! The sheer volume of it and the various sources suggest it is not fake either. Much of it is actual results, not only forecasts. You can dream all you like about the impact of Brexit in 10 years time, but to date, short term and medium term it looks a f***** disaster. But what could anyone expect trying to leave the economic community of your closest neighbours who you been in and out of bed with the last forty something years, and before which fought numerous wars with. And all without a plan or coherent view of what the vote it was all based on meant beyond Leave. Unless something very dramatic occurs these countries will also remain the UK''s closest neighbours.

 

[sb_73]

Hmmmm......got me thinking.
With regard to your last paragraph, yeah I can get that, but it still doesn’t sit right with me that there are so many hangers on in Brussels, making a fortune from the EU gravy train, and continue to make a fortune well into retirement from their pensions paid for by us, the European taxpayer.
If you can give a good argument for that then please tell me as that’s the main reason I voted ‘out’....honest question again.

In all of its parts, the EU employs about 46,000 people, half of them in the Commission. It sounds a lot, but they do cover 500 million people. Birmingham City Council employs over 33,000 for a population of 1.1m.

Undoubtedly some of them are very well paid, especially the Commissioners and senior ECJ judges. But none of them are as well paid as quite a few U.K. senior civil servants, who also enjoy very generous pensions. If you don’t feel that you get any direct or indirect benefit from the £115 per year of your income tax (if you are an average level U.K. tax payer) that goes to the EU, then anything spent on the EU infrastructure is a waste of money. As most of the benefit is indirect and clouded by years of fake press stories about bananas and gravy trains, and Tory MPs whining, I’m not surprised a lot of people don’t see the value and think it’s all a rip off.

The salaries and benefits of the EU civil servants are set and have to be signed off by the Council of Ministers and European Parliament. They are designed to sit within the span of public sector pay across the EU. If they earned a lot more than the average then too many good people would leave their national systems, a lot less and the EU wouldn’t be able to recruit. Compared to the senior levels of the private sector all of these senior public servants do rather poorly financially, though I suppose they have a bit more job security (unless in the case of the EU, where British civil servants will be unemployed in April 2019).

I’m sure the citizens of Europe could get better value from the EU, it’s a pretty flawed organisation, but so are all large bureaucracies public or private, and a brutal fact is that if you want intelligent people to work hard for you, whether it’s public or private sector, you have to reward them.

Sorry Stainsey, but if you cast your vote on this alone it’s too late for me to change your mind now.

 

[ELLERS]

"German news"? Well not unless BBC, Sky, The Guardian, The Telegraph, and The Independent are all now German! The sheer volume of it and the various sources suggest it is not fake either. Much of it is actual results, not only forecasts. You can dream all you like about the impact of Brexit in 10 years time, but to date, short term and medium term it looks a f***** disaster. But what could anyone expect trying to leave the economic community of your closest neighbours who you been in and out of bed with the last forty something years, and before which fought numerous wars with. And all without a plan or coherent view of what the vote it was all based on meant beyond Leave. Unless something very dramatic occurs these countries will also remain the UK''s closest neighbours.

From my memory of history the wars we fought were caused by them. unless you want to try and blame that on Brexit?