Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

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New prime minister of Italy. Interesting she quotes English writer and philosopher, GK Chesterton

The worm is turning...

Fascist/totalitarian playbook 101.
Identify your tribe ‘God, family, country’
Define your tribe as pure
Describe your tribe as under attack
List your enemies
List your enemies again
Explain how your enemies are responsible for all the ills of the tribe, they are to blame for everything
Repeat until the fear, anger and paranoia of the gullible reach fever pitch
Maintain at this constant level of hysteria. If some of your enemies are ‘defeated’ or disappear, find new enemies to blame.

The only surprise on this little video is that she stopped at ‘financial speculators’ and didn’t say Soros, which is obviously thanks to Orban now code for Jews. But of course it’s not actually necessary to join the dots.

Interesting how the people who tweet this stuff, often with their little Union Jack and/or cross of St George flags/logos, rarely explicitly rejoice at the rise of these extremists, they just kind of smirk with an ‘I told you so’ overtone to have a poke at their liberal enemies, even though they are doubtless hunched over their laptops ****ing themselves into oblivion over Ms Meloni whilst singing blood and country marching songs.

Any coalition including uber egotists Berlusconi and Salvini is unlikely to last long, particularly if these Neanderthal misogynists have to play second fiddle to a woman, but this could turn difficult if FORZA and Lega MPs defect to the Brothers, who then have a go at the constitution.

Just to be clear, this result, the similar one in Sweden, Trump, Poland, Johnson/Truss/Brexit, Orban etc are primarily down to the complete complacency and sense of entitlement of the old style liberal democrats typified by Blair, Obama, Cameron, allowing all sorts of venal chancers to fill the vacuum they have created.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Leaving a jolly note in the treasury...
" By the way, there is no money left"

Not only no money, but big debts from the worldwide pandemic and lockdown, the war in Europe and Russia's energy cut off, and, yes, a Tory gamble that didn't pay off, if that happens.

 

[Stroller]

Where will they find the money for that? I saw £196 bn. It's a promise for votes, isn't it?

Where on earth did you get that figure from? It needn't cost anything if it's just a question of not renewing franchises.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Fascist/totalitarian playbook 101.
Identify your tribe ‘God, family, country’
Define your tribe as pure
Describe your tribe as under attack
List your enemies
List your enemies again
Explain how your enemies are responsible for all the ills of the tribe, they are to blame for everything
Repeat until the fear, anger and paranoia of the gullible reach fever pitch
Maintain at this constant level of hysteria. If some of your enemies are ‘defeated’ or disappear, find new enemies to blame.

The only surprise on this little video is that she stopped at ‘financial speculators’ and didn’t say Soros, which is of course code for Jews. But of course it’s not actually necessary to join the dots.

Interesting how the people who tweet this stuff, often with their little Union Jack and/or cross of St George flags/logos, rarely explicitly rejoice at the rise of these extremists, they just kind of smirk with an ‘I told you so’ overtone to have a poke at their liberal enemies, even though they are doubtless hunched over their laptops ****ing themselves into oblivion over Ms Meloni whilst singing blood and country marching songs.

Any coalition including Uber egotists Berlusconi and Salvini is unlikely to last long, particularly if these Neanderthal misogynists have to play second fiddle to a woman, but this could turn difficult if FORZA and Lega MPs defect to the Brothers, who then have a go at the constitution.

Just to be clear, this result, the similar one in Sweden, Trump, Poland, Johnson/Truss/Brexit, Orban etc are primarily down to the complete complacency of the old style liberal democrats typified by Blair, Obama, Cameron, allowing all sorts of venal chancers to fill the vacuum they have created.

Except, really it was about God, country and family, values that have been eroded in the last 50 years. Financial speculators don't have to be Jewish and there are many more around than just Soros.

I agree it was aimed at the liberal elite, in particular the EU that, although not responsible for the diaspora from the Third World, has watched immigrants flock into Italy in unlimited numbers and done next to nothing.

This has to be a wake up call, before popularism becomes a fanatical side of nationalism.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Where on earth did you get that figure from? It needn't cost anything if it's just a question of not renewing franchises.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/would-nationalising-railways-mean-cheaper-17360904

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Where on earth did you get that figure from? It needn't cost anything if it's just a question of not renewing franchises.

Some of the leases go on for eight or ten years. And then there's the rolling stock

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

ignoring a worldwide pandemic, lockdown and a war in Europe which has dried up energy resources

Agreed.

But:

1 None of these applied during almost 10 years of dogma driven austerity.
2 Now that they do apply, surely a time for financial prudence instead of borrowing and splurging money at tax cuts instead of providing financial support for those worst affected.

 

[sb_73]

Except, really it was about God, country and family, values that have been eroded in the last 50 years.
If you really believe that, and you think these things are important and at risk, she has a potential supporter in you.
Financial speculators don't have to be Jewish and there are many more around than just Soros.
Of course financial speculators aren’t an homogenous group but the fascist/totalitarian playbook likes to call on old nasty tropes which people are too ashamed nowadays to say out loud. It’s not true but the image is there.

I agree it was aimed at the liberal elite, in particular the EU that, although not responsible for the diaspora from the Third World, has watched immigrants flock into Italy in unlimited numbers and done next to nothing.
One of my comments was aimed at the old liberal elite, and how they have provided the ground and oxygen for creatures like Meloni to emerge, but her diatribe was aimed at capturing the minds, such as they are, of the confused people who like to be told that everything is that is wrong in their life is the fault of someone else, usually somebody different to them - nationality, race, class, wealth, religion…and in Italy region.
This has to be a wake up call, before popularism becomes a fanatical side of nationalism.
I think the Brothers are well past that already. She is their ‘acceptable face’ others in there literally worship at Mussolini’s memorial

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Agreed.

But:

1Surely these are all reasons to be cautious

This assumes their goal is to actually improve the country in some way.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Agreed.

But:

1Surely these are all reasons to be cautious

You're sounding like Rishi Sunak now, but you may be right. Until they find an economist that can predict the future, we just have to wait with bated breath.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

She won't have a supporter in me if she mutates to anything resembling fascism. We'll have to see whether she's Bride of Mussolini or Trump-lite

 

[rangercol]

Oh come on, it’s recovered to $1:06 now. Also below €1:10, which is a better indication of weakness of the £ - the $ has a higher interest rate than us it’s inherently more attractive,but the € is much lower, has taken a hammering against the $, and nobody thinks the EU is in great shape economically. But evidently better than us, at least since Friday.

Potential reactions:
- the markets don’t lie, it’s a necessary readjustment. Other currencies are suffering against the $ as well.The free market ideologue response. [well, the markets don’t lie, because they aren’t conscious. The ‘readjustment’ is only necessary because the algorithms say that the British economy is weaker than last week because of government policy. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy, we have just loaded ourselves up with more expensive government debt and a lower tax base. Genius)
- Stop talking the U.K. down and being negative, ****ing scaremongers. The head in the sand ‘patriotic’ response.
- It’s a plot by (select at will)- the EU, Soros, Gates, Megan and Harry, immigrants, the Illuminati,etc etc - to destroy the country, our ‘freedoms’, and corrupt our precious bodily fluids. The paranoid fascist response.

The Bank of England will now have to put interest rates up again sharpish (it should have done more last week) in what will rightly be seen as a panic move. This will add cost to the bigger government debt. Truss and Kwarteng won’t budge an inch, they are ideologues who might actually believe the voodoo bollocks they are peddling. The benefit of capping energy prices on inflation is lost because the cost of imports, including oil which we pay for in $, soars.

Unravelling pretty fast isn’t it? Not surprising given that everyone with any credibility said the policy was nuts and had never worked. Ministers refusing to comment on ‘market movements’.


The good news is that Tory MPs are brilliant at getting rid of **** Tory leaders. Their problem is finding a decent one to replace the idiots they’ve binned.

There are plenty of economists who think that these measures are what is required, whilst acknowledging that they're high risk.

I have no idea whether they're right or you are.

What do you think would be an effective alternative and who could deliver it?

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

There are plenty of economists who think that these measures are what is required, whilst acknowledging that they're high risk.

I have no idea whether they're right or you are.

What do you think would be an effective alternative and who could deliver it?

****ting in their hands and clapping would currently represent a better alternative. Which actual economists are backing this **** rather than Spectator columnists?

 

[sb_73]

There are plenty of economists who think that these measures are what is required, whilst acknowledging that they're high risk.

I have no idea whether they're right or you are.

What do you think would be an effective alternative and who could deliver it?

I’ve answered this question from you already, at tedious length, see post #79033 on this thread. You even ‘liked’ the response.

Had a check up recently?

I can’t find the numbers but I have read that only a tiny fraction of economists think the Truss/Kwarteng will deliver growth. You hear both sides of the argument because the BBC in particular tries to be ‘balanced’. In fact this can be misleading, as if one side of an argument has overwhelming support from ‘experts’ (and I won’t stand up for economists here….) that should be said as well as giving equal voice to the minority view. It’s like getting an opinion from 10 doctors, 9 say you have meningitis and the other one says it’s just a headache. Do you give both views equal credence?

We are now in the scenario where are monetary policy, which is supposed to be about controlling inflation, will be dictated by market movements. Just like the seventies.

 

[bobmid]

Don't know how true it is but there's reports of 'letters of no confidence' already being sent to the 1922 committee!
They really are doing a fine job of ****ing up the country!

 

[Willhoops]

Don't know how true it is but there's reports of 'letters of no confidence' already being sent to the 1922 committee!
They really are doing a fine job of ****ing up the country!

That would be hilarious, I mean it would be not respecting their own vote.

 

[Willhoops]

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[bobmid]

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What an absolute twat that bloke is! Just spouts complete and utter nonsense

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

What an absolute twat that bloke is! Just spouts complete and utter nonsense

That’s our next Prime Minister you’re talking about.

 

[rangercol]

I’ve answered this question from you already, at tedious length, see post #79033 on this thread. You even ‘liked’ the response.

Had a check up recently?

I can’t find the numbers but I have read that only a tiny fraction of economists think the Truss/Kwarteng will deliver growth. You hear both sides of the argument because the BBC in particular tries to be ‘balanced’. In fact this can be misleading, as if one side of an argument has overwhelming support from ‘experts’ (and I won’t stand up for economists here….) that should be said as well as giving equal voice to the minority view. It’s like getting an opinion from 10 doctors, 9 say you have meningitis and the other one says it’s just a headache. Do you give both views equal credence?

We are now in the scenario where are monetary policy, which is supposed to be about controlling inflation, will be dictated by market movements. Just like the seventies.

Yes you have, but as you keep banging on about it at tedious length, I thought I'd ask again.

Maybe you're wrong.

Has been known.