Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

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    Votes: 56 47.9%
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    Votes: 61 52.1%

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  • Poll closed .
It refers to a demonstration by 600 members of a right wing militia.

So the figures were used by you to suit your purpose then ?

I will add in this Goldie, although we are batting this back and forth, and obviously don’t agree…..at all times you have been polite, argued your case well and not resorted to petty insults or dramas.
Respect to you mate and always a pleasure to debate with you.
 
War is dirty. War is a failure of diplomacy. War is the last resort. But war generally happens when the two sides involved in the conflict keep pushing each other until one power decides enough is enough. Atrocities happen, it's the nature of war. How many thousands of innocent civilians did the Allies kill in the bombing if Dresden and other German cities? Hiw many died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But we don't dwell on that. Yes, Hitler, Mussolini and Horohito were the bad guys, but we had plenty of blood on our hands too.

So, Putin is the nastier of the two in this conflict but there are no innocents in the leaderships of both nations, only the poor civilians who's country is now being ravaged by the Soviets. Where will it all end? Putin is a madman on a mission, so **** knows. But I'd be very wary of getting any NATO troops involved as that will lead to total carnage.

Plenty of submarine action out on the Clyde the last couple of weeks, wonder what they are up to....

Don't disagree with any of this. But Putin was unjustified in invading Ukraine, he's killing innocents ans so most people don't have a difficulty in choosing sides on the specific issue of the invasion.
 
Again, and I mentioned this earlier, haven’t the Ukrainian government made all civilians a legitimate target in war by calling for them to rise up and attack the Russian forces with petrol bombs and handing out 1000’s of AKs ?
Not knocking them for it but it’s hard now to differentiate innocent civilian to enemy combatant…..at least that’s what I’d think.
I’m sure someone like Steels would possibly be able to elaborate

What should it tell them to do when it's country is invaded by an aggressor? Wave a white flag and ready themselves to be governed by a dictator, while members of their government are liquidated?
 
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So the figures were used by you to suit your purpose then ?

I will add in this Goldie, although we are batting this back and forth, and obviously don’t agree…..at all times you have been polite, argued your case well and not resorted to petty insults or dramas.
Respect to you mate and always a pleasure to debate with you.

And you, Stainsey.
 
What should it tell them to do when it's country is invaded by an aggressor? Wave a white flag and ready themselves to be governed by a dictator, while members of their government are liquidated?

Read what I said mate…….made it quite clear that I wasn’t knocking the idea. However the fact of the matter is, by making that statement, the Ukrainian government have made all civilians targets
 
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Read what I said mate…….made it quite clear that I was knocking the idea. However the fact of the matter is, by making that statement, the Ukrainian government have made all civilians targets

The Russians will no longer have any doubts when they are shooting/shelling/bombing places (not that I think they had any problems doing this anyway) - in their eyes, their actions have now been legitimised by the Ukranians arming their population. However, it's a slaughter, men against boys, and not a fair fight.

Once they have completed the invasion and it becomes an occupation, it will be interesting to see how the Ukranian resistance fighters (who will be well armed, supplied and backed by the West) hold out. The Russians will have no-one to trust, every person they come across could be a potential freedom fighter (or terrorist in Putins eyes). This could drag on for years, a bloody occupation that the Russian people might not have the will to fight and could easily bring about the end of Putin, especially if the Ukranians start bombing Moscow, St Petersburg, Sochi etc (yet more innocent lives lost)
 
In 2014, the regiment gained notoriety after allegations emerged of torture and war crimes as well as neo-Nazi sympathies and usage of associated symbols by the regiment itself, as seen in their logo featuring the Wolfsangel, one of the original symbols used by the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich. Representatives of the Azov Battalion say that the symbol is an abbreviation for the slogan Ідея Нації (Ukrainian for "National Idea") and deny connection with Nazism.[11] In 2014, a spokesman for the regiment said around 10–20% of the unit were neo-Nazis.[12] In 2018, a provision in an appropriations bill passed by the U.S. Congress blocked military aid to Azov on the grounds of its white supremacist ideology; however, in 2015, a similar ban on aid to the group was overturned by the Congress.[6][7] Members of the regiment come from 22 countries and are of various backgrounds.[13][14]

More than half of the regiment's members speak Russian and come from eastern Ukraine,[15] including cities of Donetsk and Luhansk.[16] The unit's first commander was far-right nationalist Andriy Biletsky, who led the neo-Nazi Social-National Assembly and Patriot of Ukraine.[17][18] In its early days, Azov was a special police company of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, led by Volodymyr Shpara, the leader of the Vasylkiv, Kyiv, branch of Patriot of Ukraine and Right Sector.[19][20][21] In 2016, members of the non-governmental organization "Azov Civil Corps" and Azov Battalion veterans created the political party National Corps.[22]
good copy and paste mate maybe better off having your own views
 
The Russians will no longer have any doubts when they are shooting/shelling/bombing places (not that I think they had any problems doing this anyway) - in their eyes, their actions have now been legitimised by the Ukranians arming their population. However, it's a slaughter, men against boys, and not a fair fight.

Once they have completed the invasion and it becomes an occupation, it will be interesting to see how the Ukranian resistance fighters (who will be well armed, supplied and backed by the West) hold out. The Russians will have no-one to trust, every person they come across could be a potential freedom fighter (or terrorist in Putins eyes). This could drag on for years, a bloody occupation that the Russian people might not have the will to fight and could easily bring about the end of Putin, especially if the Ukranians start bombing Moscow, St Petersburg, Sochi etc (yet more innocent lives lost)

Good shout…..I expect the Russian military to have total victory in a few weeks, maybe a month or so (but I’m no expert)
But as you say, will that now mean that it moves to the next phase and becomes a Vietnam/Afghanistan guerrilla war ?
As you say, this could drag on for years with the end only coming if and when a new regime takes over in Russia.
 
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The Russians will no longer have any doubts when they are shooting/shelling/bombing places (not that I think they had any problems doing this anyway) - in their eyes, their actions have now been legitimised by the Ukranians arming their population. However, it's a slaughter, men against boys, and not a fair fight.

Once they have completed the invasion and it becomes an occupation, it will be interesting to see how the Ukranian resistance fighters (who will be well armed, supplied and backed by the West) hold out. The Russians will have no-one to trust, every person they come across could be a potential freedom fighter (or terrorist in Putins eyes). This could drag on for years, a bloody occupation that the Russian people might not have the will to fight and could easily bring about the end of Putin, especially if the Ukranians start bombing Moscow, St Petersburg, Sochi etc (yet more innocent lives lost)

Do you think NATO should intervene Steels?
 
Do you think NATO should intervene Steels?

Not directly. I know that doesn't answer your point, but NATO intervention would be a really bad escalation of hostilities which will effect each and every one of us.

The moment Putin puts one foot on the soil of any nation who is a member of NATO, then it's a totally different matter and it's gloves off. I honestly hoped he wouldn't go ahead with this invasion, but all the signs were there, and it was no surprise to the intelligence agencies.

Do I think Putin is crazy enough to take on the West? Maybe... his decisions have been erratic and gung-ho, which must be worrying for his generals as they will be wondering where and what he wants to do next. We need to use every power we have to force him out of power, without landing a direct punch on him. Ousting him has to be at the behest of the Russian people, else he will be replaced by another zealot.
 
Ruskies been kicked out of Swift by the West, whilst Putin is tryimg to supress Twitter and Facebook over 'censorship issues". That's the problem with the Internet, even if you flood it with fake news from within your own borders, anyone who wants more than the party line just has to widen their search....
 
Google is your friend…..I suggest starting with Azov Batallion and work from there (good article from Newsweek)
Come back to me with your choice….remember it’s all black or white in Goldie/Col world
Ahh I see……’cos it doesn’t fit your narrative it’s all made up. It’s all out there Goldie, from reputable sources if you really want to look…..but as you’ve chosen your side, I guess you really don’t give a ****.
Russian backed separatists……they aren’t the good guys either.
But I’ve already said that about this conflict……I don’t live in Goldie/Col world where I have to choose a side.

So who you choosing mate ?
Ok if it’s a call I’m against Putin……happy now lads ?

But can I add the caveat that I am not a supporter of any Ukrainian, fascist militia that have been murdering children in the Donbas for the last 14 years while people, like yourselves, couldn’t give a **** ?

I feel that’s a fair compromise

I note that, during your character assassination of myself and Goldie, as our resident freedom fighter, you failed to ever mention the person who actually posed the question to Stroller and Cologne: "pick a side".

Stan will no doubt speak for himself, but it is odd that you couldn't bring yourself to criticise your shining light and mentor on here.

I respect your passionately held views mate, but you step over the line suggesting people don't give a **** about children being murdered etc.

All too often, this board and especially this thread, descends into one upmanship and wind ups.

I'd like to say you're better than that, but after yesterday, I'm not too sure.
 
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Thats your opinion and you’re fully entitled to it. I think it’s far more complicated than that and don’t think it’s a matter of ‘taking sides’.
Funny to see you say ‘Putin or Ukraine’…..
Why not Russia or Ukraine….or Putin or Zelinsky ?
It’s an interesting point. Historically certain leaders have been identified as the aggressor over their country … Hitler, Amin, Lenin, Mao, Stalin, Genghis Khan. Interesting many of those espousing the red star symbolism of communism :emoticon-0105-wink:
 
I note that, during your character assassination of myself and Goldie, as our resident freedom fighter, you failed to ever mention the person who actually posed the question to Stroller and Cologne: "pick a side".

Stan will no doubt speak for himself, but it is odd that you couldn't bring yourself to criticise your shining light and mentor on here.

I respect your passionately held views mate, but you step over the line suggesting people don't give a **** about children being murdered etc.

All too often, this board and especially this thread, descends into one upmanship and wind ups.

I'd like to say you're better than that, but after yesterday, I'm not too sure.

Jesús Col, get a grip. I haven’t assassinated your character for god sake. I’ve just had a decent debate with Goldie about the situation over there without insult or petty bickering (something I’ve done before with others I’d admit). Hopefully I’ve also spread a bit of knowledge also about the nature of some of your “heroes” in the right wing militia fighting for “the good guys.
My points to Goldie and yourself still stand….In my opinion, one that as an individual I’m allowed to have, no conflict is black and white, no conflict has good guys/bad guys and all sides commit atrocities.
Morally and personally I find it difficult to “pick a side” and for you to label people like me and Cologne as some kind of “Putin loving traitors” is unjustified. I fought my corner without, I thought, insult but if the “dead kids” comment upset you then I’m sorry……however why not debate the fact, like Goldie, instead of telling me the “**** off” and flounce off in a huff…..not a good look mate
And as for Stans comment, genuinely missed it as you might have noticed I was sleeping after a Night Shift and quickly scrolled through the notifications when I got up…but I’m sure he’ll read my comments and come back to us.
If you want a debate I might be about a bit today but can’t promise.
Chill out mate
 
It’s an interesting point. Historically certain leaders have been identified as the aggressor over their country … Hitler, Amin, Lenin, Mao, Stalin, Genghis Khan. Interesting many of those espousing the red star symbolism of communism :emoticon-0105-wink:

Hitler and Amin were proper Commie bastards, eh mate ;)
And as for that Khan bloke…..didn’t go to bed till he had read a chapter of Das Kapital and sung 3 verses of “The Red Flag” :)
 
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