Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Uber_Hoop]

So why do you whine on about the Eurozone taking business from the city? And let's remember that these are the ****s who gave us the 2008 recession. Don't bank on HSBC (pun intended). They ran away from Shanghai, they ran away from Hong Kong (I lived there at the time, they weren't popular).

I know you wrote that crap to get a rise Goldie, but I sometimes wonder whether when you go abroad, if you ever do, you take your own food and shout to make yourself understood. Here's something which will help you choose where to go on your next works outing, somewhere most people would be quite happy to see the back of us.

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As a former colony Cyprus knows us best and likes us least.

Does that graph really mean that those that least wish the UK to remain in the EU also like us the least?

 

[finglasqpr]

So why do you whine on about the Eurozone taking business from the city? And let's remember that these are the ****s who gave us the 2008 recession. Don't bank on HSBC (pun intended). They ran away from Shanghai, they ran away from Hong Kong (I lived there at the time, they weren't popular).

I know you wrote that crap to get a rise Goldie, but I sometimes wonder whether when you go abroad, if you ever do, you take your own food and shout to make yourself understood. Here's something which will help you choose where to go on your next works outing, somewhere most people would be quite happy to see the back of us.

You must log in or register to see images

As a former colony Cyprus knows us best and likes us least.

Delighted to see we are number 4 on the list of countries wanting you to stay. Surprised we are not number one and that only 70% of us want you lads to stay. I wonder why so many Cypriots want you to leave? Aren't they a commonwealth country or one time commonwealth members?

 

[sb_73]

Does that graph really mean that those that least wish the UK to remain in the EU also like us the least?

Possibly not, they may have our best interests at heart.

 

[TootingExcess]

There's no evidence that these financial institutions will pick up sticks and move, Tooting. Look at HSBC which, since it has its origins in the Far East, might well have gone back to Hong Kong. It threatened to leave London, but after due consideration, decided not stay, Brexit or not. Why? Because everything is in place in London to make it a brilliant place to do business in. As a businessman in a competitive market, you need to be where the competition is. The "Square Mile" has everything that finance and commerce needs, and this just cannot be replicated in another part of the world overnight. Paris is a lovely place to take your girlfriend in Spring, but just doesn't have the make-up or resources for financial business like London. Frankfurt is like Paris, but not such a nice place to take your girlfriend.

In London, English law applies - not some unexpected continental law or obscure state law of New York. English law is THE law of contract. Experienced and trusted English courts will dispense justice when there's a dispute. The top lawyers and accountants in the world will be working in the next building in Canary Wharf when a CEO needs consultation. The Stock Market provides reliable, well tested services and the stockbrokers have centuries of experience. Everything about The City of London is geared to smooth running of these big financial institutions. London also has close working and historical links with important offshore jurisdictions like Bermuda and the Cayman Islands - important in the insurance industry. And where is the worldwide insurance centre? It is Lloyds of London with centuries of experience and goodwill particularly in shipping and latterly aviation.

And remember too, human nature. Top bankers are wealthy people who want to enjoy life. London offers more in terms of history, culture, theatre, opera, concerts, restaurants, sporting venues etc than anywhere else in the world. New York comes close in certain artistic culture but lacks the magic of history somehow.

In the event of Brexit, these major institutions will continue to do business all over the world from their London (and New York) offices. Europe is still a train or a plane ride away. But they just will not uproot themselves and relocate in a waste land in Frankfurt.

Rule Britannia :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...York-as-the-worlds-best-financial-centre.html

There's trillions of euro derivatives and repos traded and cleared through London, despite not being in the eurozone because we are still in the EU. this has to go for a start once we leave their jurisdiction, banks will follow the business and there is no benefit for withdrawing from the European market compared to what we can do today.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

There's trillions of euro derivatives and repos traded and cleared through London, despite not being in the eurozone because we are still in the EU. this has to go for a start once we leave their jurisdiction, banks will follow the business and there is no benefit for withdrawing from the European market compared to what we can do today.

Banks can deal with that through subsidiaries in the EU. That's how the Swiss operate

 

[rangercol]

I’ve decided to join Chaz and drop out of this until it’s all over. Before I go, some thoughts to share… Have fun with it, Brexiters. I won’t be replying!


“Britain was a great trading nation and will be again”

This is romantic nonsense. Britain became a worldwide trading nation in the first Elizabethan era, and that continued up until the end of WW2. It was always backed up by military force. That is no longer an acceptable approach. Commonwealth nations may well want to trade with us more in the future, but only if it suits their needs. That probably means if they sell to us more than we sell to them. There’s no loyalty to the old Empire, just a recognition of a past shared history. Some Commonwealth nations are developing their economies rapidly, but most are very small at the moment. Some of the bigger ones are facing recession. India seems to be an exception, with a large population and low rates of pay.


“Sovereignty”

Again, romantic nonsense that appeals to the heart and bypasses the head. The world no longer supports the actuality of the sovereign nation state. If your country (like ours) is not self sufficient then it must trade what it has for what it needs. That requires forming relationships based on mutual interests and working hard to keep those relationships alive and mutually beneficent. That (like all relationships) requires making some compromises and concessions to gain other things that you value more.


“Security”

I don’t see how leaving the EU would improve our standing in NATO or improve our chances of keeping a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. The current US president wants to see the UK stay in the EU, not to leave, but that will be because it suits his purposes - not necessarily the same as ours. I read that the Russian president probably wants us to leave - but for similar reasons of his own, I’m sure.


“Immigration”

Some people face genuine problems exacerbated by people moving to the UK. There is pressure on health services, schools, housing. In some areas there is a real problem with employment, where wages have dropped because some people will happily work for less than a native Brit. It’s better pay than they can get back home. That, apparently, is a bad attitude on the part of the immigrant. Or, to put it another way, employers will pay as little as possible. That, apparently, is OK on the part of the employer.


The latest figures show that net migration from the EU in the last year was 184,000. We are in an agreement which means we give up the right to control that. The non-EU net migration figure was slightly larger, 188,000. That can be controlled already but clearly isn’t. That’s something that can be controlled today yet the powers-that-be aren’t managing the job. Why will it be easier for them to control if they are our fellow Europeans?


So, if we leave the EU, will we be deporting EU citizens already here? That won’t happen, I’m sure, so they will still be here and we still need infrastructure to cope. My Spanish and Portuguese doctors in Bournemouth are excellent, so that pleases me. Luckily, neither will the millions of Brits living in other EU countries get sent back here.


Genuine problems caused by immigration are resolvable by the UK government if it chooses to do so, but it doesn’t. You might ask yourself why not? There’s a reason that companies based in the UK (some British-owned, many not) employ cheaper staff. Most of them feel no allegiance to the UK except as a marketplace or zone of production.


Business doesn’t do borders in todays moral climate. It is common for a business to close down a factory in one country and open a factory in another just to benefit from lower production costs. Closing our borders won't stop this happening. I'm not anti-business, by the way. I'm just recognising something that happens and I understand why it happens that way. A smart country works out how to reduce any negative impact when that happens.


It must be hard, understandably, to find out that someone else from another EU country will do your job for less money. It must be even harder when you can see they are not as well-qualified as you and won’t do the job as well, but they’re cheaper - which is all your employer wants.


But don’t we buy cheap T-shirts made by Bangladeshi children? Don’t we buy cheap milk from other countries instead of British milk from British farmers? There’s a reason why we don’t have enough houses, hospitals, schools and public services to meet demand when people come here to work and contribute to the public purse through taxes. Why aren't we building more infrastructure to meet need? We should look in the mirror a bit more and ask more questions of our government(s). Stopping immigration won't solve these issues because immigration isn't the disease, just a symptom.


It’s a cruel world outside our borders and we are not a self-sufficient country. We need local partners to trade with, who share similar values, who we can cooperate with to our mutual benefit.


"Leave or Remain?"
Instead of thinking about leaving, we should be asking our politicians to do more within the EU, improving it and maybe try leading it for a change instead of complaining or using it as a convenient excuse for their own failings. That, for me, would be the British thing to do. Pulling up the drawbridge on one hand and insisting we are a thrusting nation at the same time just doesn’t cut it, sorry.


Until next season, then…

This is mostly dream world bollocks and for people to describe it as a great post etc is quite depressing.

 

[sb_73]

ouch, just bit my tongue.

 

[sb_73]

Obama in Hiroshima. Complicated stuff, grateful that I didn't have to make that decision. I found this very moving. (It was on the main news site, I only watch CBBC a couple of hours a day).

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[Stroller]

Tony Blair ensures that Corbyn's leadership is unassailable....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36401105

At least he feels humble about Iraq. That's alright then.

 

[colognehornet]

Looked on the BBC news website this morning in the anticipation of seeing something new and was greeted by Blair spouting on about how dangerous it would be to elect Corbyn as PM. Would Blair himself have allowed someone in his party to go to the BBC and give such an interview ? - effectively telling people to vote for the opposition. I very much doubt it. He says that the reason some people hate him (Blair that is), is because he won 3 elections for Labour - could the reason for this hate not be that he had 3 electoral terms yet left Britain in a situation which was indistinguishable to that if the Conservatives had been in power ? The man belongs before a war crimes tribunal, not giving interviews of this type to the BBC. I wonder why so much criticism of Corbyn concentrates on the general issue of 'unelectability' without explaining why ? - or concentrating on the actual issues which Corbyn believes in.

 

[sb_73]

Tony Blair ensures that Corbyn's leadership is unassailable....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36401105

At least he feels humble about Iraq. That's alright then.

Looked on the BBC news website this morning in the anticipation of seeing something new and was greeted by Blair spouting on about how dangerous it would be to elect Corbyn as PM. Would Blair himself have allowed someone in his party to go to the BBC and give such an interview ? - effectively telling people to vote for the opposition. I very much doubt it. He says that the reason some people hate him (Blair that is), is because he won 3 elections for Labour - could the reason for this hate not be that he had 3 electoral terms yet left Britain in a situation which was indistinguishable to that if the Conservatives had been in power ? The man belongs before a war crimes tribunal, not giving interviews of this type to the BBC. I wonder why so much criticism of Corbyn concentrates on the general issue of 'unelectability' without explaining why ? - or concentrating on the actual issues which Corbyn believes in.

Thing is, no matter how much you despise him, he is still a far more substantial figure than any current politician. And his ideology - the market democracy/'we will force you to be free' mantra - was just as radical as any old style Corbyn socialism. And just as doomed to fail. Blair did have a vision, unlike Cameron who is a purely reactive politician.

 

[Stroller]

Thing is, no matter how much you despise him, he is still a far more substantial figure than any current politician. And his ideology - the market democracy/'we will force you to be free' mantra - was just as radical as any old style Corbyn socialism. And just as doomed to fail. Blair did have a vision, unlike Cameron who is a purely reactive politician.

Blair's 'Third Way' wasn't really anything new, it was a justification for abandoning any remnants of socialism and a means of persuading some Tories to vote Labour. It was market capitalism with a smiley face, and it won votes - and power. What it brought though, was more deregulation, PFI, academies, faith schools and so on. Not for me, thanks.

Corbyn has a massive mandate to take the Labour party back to where it belongs and he is gaining popularity in the wider population. Blair should butt out.

 

[sb_73]

Blair's 'Third Way' wasn't really anything new, it was a justification for abandoning any remnants of socialism and a means of persuading some Tories to vote Labour. It was market capitalism with a smiley face, and it won votes - and power. What it brought though, was more deregulation, PFI, academies, faith schools and so on. Not for me, thanks.

Corbyn has a massive mandate to take the Labour party back to where it belongs and he is gaining popularity in the wider population. Blair should butt out.

I've been reading a lot about the course of politics from the Cold War on recently. The "Third Way" was just a sound bite. Blair was very consciously following in the footsteps of Thatcher, Reagan and Clinton in believing that the market was a better reflection of 'individual freedom' than politics (though Clinton was forced into this when he was told exactly how dire the US finances were shortly before taking office, dropping is reform programme instantly). His job was to continue their work in making the public sector play by the market rules, dressed up as attacking the power of elites and bureaucracies. But he couldn't be explicit about it, given the Labour constituency. And I suspect his adoption of Isiah Berlin's 'negative liberty' (freedom from coercion, the individual paramount, rules to prevent us interfering with each other's Liberty only, politics is about letting individuals get what they want, and the market is better at it) versus 'positive liberty' (freedom to fulfill your potential and transform yourself and society - often ending up being coerced to do so cf revolutionary France, Soviet Russia, China) did not sit comfortably with him given his 'transformative' religious beliefs. He even wrote to Berlin about it, but unfortunately the great man was dying and did not respond. Unfortunate because Blair fell into the trap that Berlin predicted for negative Liberty - it adopts the totalitarian tactics of 'positive Liberty' to protect itself and expand its influence -the ends justify the means- hence the 'we will force you to be free' approach in Iraq, dismantling all the institutions of the state, getting rid of all the people who ran them and letting the market run free. Just the same as we and the Americans encouraged the Russians to do in the 90s, resulting in the President (Yeltsin) closing parliament (and shelling the building with MPs inside), oligarchs buying the country's infrastructure at 2% of its value and the rise of Putin and nationalism.

What we need to do is figure out how we can have positive Liberty without coercion. Sadly, it's beyond me at the moment, but I'm afraid Jeremy does not offer me much hope. Have a look at those documentaries, made in 2007, I posted links to in a response to Chaz earlier in this thread.

 

[Stroller]

What we need to do is figure out how we can have positive Liberty without coercion. Sadly, it's beyond me at the moment, but I'm afraid Jeremy does not offer me much hope. Have a look at those documentaries, made in 2007, I posted links to in a response to Chaz earlier in this thread.

Yeah, I'll take a look.

 

[Stroller]

Not a bad return for £12.5k.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...tion-to-the-conservative-party-raises-seriou/

 

[rangercol]

So why do you whine on about the Eurozone taking business from the city? And let's remember that these are the ****s who gave us the 2008 recession. Don't bank on HSBC (pun intended). They ran away from Shanghai, they ran away from Hong Kong (I lived there at the time, they weren't popular).

I know you wrote that crap to get a rise Goldie, but I sometimes wonder whether when you go abroad, if you ever do, you take your own food and shout to make yourself understood. Here's something which will help you choose where to go on your next works outing, somewhere most people would be quite happy to see the back of us.

You must log in or register to see images

As a former colony Cyprus knows us best and likes us least.

Condescending? You?



Just a bit!!

 

[rangercol]

Great post. Don't go, we need a few who don't engage in the mud slinging.

On sovereignty, I've been struggling to express what you have said for months. Thanks. It's a myth for a developed western nation, everything is already so interlocked and global. Plus governments for the last 30 years have unwittingly delegated power away from themselves, largely to bankers, economists and investment houses, in an implicit attempt to create market democracies which are felt to meet the needs of individuals better than political democracies. Friedrich Hayek and James Buchanan have a lot to answer for. It doesn't work and has resulted in 'oh dear-ism' where politicians are helpless to do much about anything and this pervasive inclination to blame others.

There is no doubt that big business etc has far too much influence on everything.

However, you have an unrealistic ideological view of sovereignty imo. Try telling Americans that their sovereign Nation is a Myth, or the Aussies etc etc. Be part of a trading agreement; defence agreement or a Commonwealth if your people want to have our Monach as their figurehead, but retain independence.

You must be a big fan of how the old Soviet Union was run.....keep Nations in line and dictate to them how they should do things. It didn't work for them and collapsed. It will never work.
A one World Nation is a lovely, airy-fairy desire, as is the Green Party's desire to turn all our air bases etc into fields of wild flowers. Neither will happen and both are examples of not living in the real World.

 

[Sooperhoop]

As a former colony Cyprus knows us best and likes us least.

Very odd, as someone whose father was Cypriot and visits the island regularly I find that unrealistic. Perhaps they interviewed a large number of the East Europeans now resident on the island. Then again, if the source is anything to do with Lord Ashcroft I wouldn't take it too seriously...

 

[sb_73]

There is no doubt that big business etc has far too much influence on everything.

However, you have an unrealistic ideological view of sovereignty imo. Try telling Americans that their sovereign Nation is a Myth, or the Aussies etc etc. Be part of a trading agreement; defence agreement or a Commonwealth if your people want to have our Monach as their figurehead, but retain independence.

You must be a big fan of how the old Soviet Union was run.....keep Nations in line and dictate to them how they should do things. It didn't work for them and collapsed. It will never work.

Still waiting for an example of how your life will change for the better with more UK sovereignty Col.

Soviet Union comment, nah, I'd much preferred to be a native resident of say Armritsar in 1919. Or then again......

 

[sb_73]

Very odd, as someone whose father was Cypriot and visits the island regularly I find that unrealistic. Perhaps they interviewed a large number of the East Europeans now resident on the island. Then again, if the source is anything to do with Lord Ashcroft I wouldn't take it too seriously...

Fair enough, it may not be about 'liking' at all, but perhaps it's something to do with the behaviour of some of the tourists or the squaddies. Presumably only covers the Greek bit of the island. Ashcroft doesn't care about how accurate this stuff is, he's always got his private country, Belize, to fall back on.