That includes 4 million Turks, which ain't going to happen. Gove is just scaremongering some of his own project fear. Most of the nonEU migrants will be spouses from South Asia and Africa. Non educated and non English speaking, probably bringing their family over too. Why brexiters seem to prefer these people over Europeans who generally integrate well is beyond me.
Humour still seems to pass you by. Many very friendly good people in the SW, and all over England and Wales where we have visited. It's been great to be home. I get the impression that many in the SW realise, or are realising now, they are better off staying in the EU despite the irritations.
Love humour & wit, justifying yourself after the event-same as 'some of my best friends are black' type comment which confirms the lack of depth or recognition of foot- mouth- in.I am sure that your belief in your decision choice is as strong as mine but weak attempts to belittle my position is unbecoming to someone who obviously has the intellect to make their own mind up. In disagreements Chairman Mao said 'it takes two hands to clap' .I'm up for any reasoned discussion & a good attack of the clap
I’ve decided to join Chaz and drop out of this until it’s all over. Before I go, some thoughts to share… Have fun with it, Brexiters. I won’t be replying! “Britain was a great trading nation and will be again” This is romantic nonsense. Britain became a worldwide trading nation in the first Elizabethan era, and that continued up until the end of WW2. It was always backed up by military force. That is no longer an acceptable approach. Commonwealth nations may well want to trade with us more in the future, but only if it suits their needs. That probably means if they sell to us more than we sell to them. There’s no loyalty to the old Empire, just a recognition of a past shared history. Some Commonwealth nations are developing their economies rapidly, but most are very small at the moment. Some of the bigger ones are facing recession. India seems to be an exception, with a large population and low rates of pay. “Sovereignty” Again, romantic nonsense that appeals to the heart and bypasses the head. The world no longer supports the actuality of the sovereign nation state. If your country (like ours) is not self sufficient then it must trade what it has for what it needs. That requires forming relationships based on mutual interests and working hard to keep those relationships alive and mutually beneficent. That (like all relationships) requires making some compromises and concessions to gain other things that you value more. “Security” I don’t see how leaving the EU would improve our standing in NATO or improve our chances of keeping a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. The current US president wants to see the UK stay in the EU, not to leave, but that will be because it suits his purposes - not necessarily the same as ours. I read that the Russian president probably wants us to leave - but for similar reasons of his own, I’m sure. “Immigration” Some people face genuine problems exacerbated by people moving to the UK. There is pressure on health services, schools, housing. In some areas there is a real problem with employment, where wages have dropped because some people will happily work for less than a native Brit. It’s better pay than they can get back home. That, apparently, is a bad attitude on the part of the immigrant. Or, to put it another way, employers will pay as little as possible. That, apparently, is OK on the part of the employer. The latest figures show that net migration from the EU in the last year was 184,000. We are in an agreement which means we give up the right to control that. The non-EU net migration figure was slightly larger, 188,000. That can be controlled already but clearly isn’t. That’s something that can be controlled today yet the powers-that-be aren’t managing the job. Why will it be easier for them to control if they are our fellow Europeans? So, if we leave the EU, will we be deporting EU citizens already here? That won’t happen, I’m sure, so they will still be here and we still need infrastructure to cope. My Spanish and Portuguese doctors in Bournemouth are excellent, so that pleases me. Luckily, neither will the millions of Brits living in other EU countries get sent back here. Genuine problems caused by immigration are resolvable by the UK government if it chooses to do so, but it doesn’t. You might ask yourself why not? There’s a reason that companies based in the UK (some British-owned, many not) employ cheaper staff. Most of them feel no allegiance to the UK except as a marketplace or zone of production. Business doesn’t do borders in todays moral climate. It is common for a business to close down a factory in one country and open a factory in another just to benefit from lower production costs. Closing our borders won't stop this happening. I'm not anti-business, by the way. I'm just recognising something that happens and I understand why it happens that way. A smart country works out how to reduce any negative impact when that happens. It must be hard, understandably, to find out that someone else from another EU country will do your job for less money. It must be even harder when you can see they are not as well-qualified as you and won’t do the job as well, but they’re cheaper - which is all your employer wants. But don’t we buy cheap T-shirts made by Bangladeshi children? Don’t we buy cheap milk from other countries instead of British milk from British farmers? There’s a reason why we don’t have enough houses, hospitals, schools and public services to meet demand when people come here to work and contribute to the public purse through taxes. Why aren't we building more infrastructure to meet need? We should look in the mirror a bit more and ask more questions of our government(s). Stopping immigration won't solve these issues because immigration isn't the disease, just a symptom. It’s a cruel world outside our borders and we are not a self-sufficient country. We need local partners to trade with, who share similar values, who we can cooperate with to our mutual benefit. "Leave or Remain?" Instead of thinking about leaving, we should be asking our politicians to do more within the EU, improving it and maybe try leading it for a change instead of complaining or using it as a convenient excuse for their own failings. That, for me, would be the British thing to do. Pulling up the drawbridge on one hand and insisting we are a thrusting nation at the same time just doesn’t cut it, sorry. Until next season, then…
Great post. Don't go, we need a few who don't engage in the mud slinging. On sovereignty, I've been struggling to express what you have said for months. Thanks. It's a myth for a developed western nation, everything is already so interlocked and global. Plus governments for the last 30 years have unwittingly delegated power away from themselves, largely to bankers, economists and investment houses, in an implicit attempt to create market democracies which are felt to meet the needs of individuals better than political democracies. Friedrich Hayek and James Buchanan have a lot to answer for. It doesn't work and has resulted in 'oh dear-ism' where politicians are helpless to do much about anything and this pervasive inclination to blame others. It's only fair to point out that a lot of the non EU migrants are students (over 50,000 I think), who of course make universities richer but don't pay tax and do take up housing and other resources. The minimum wage (I struggle to call it 'living') should in theory, make more of the 1.7m officially unemployed Brits keener to work. If all employers are paying it I suppose you could argue that it will attract yet more immigrants (not that I would blame them) but why doesn't it get more Brits into work? Sadly, your last paragraph doesn't seem to be on offer. A 'stay in as full and active members, driving much needed EU reform, rather than skulking on the periphery boasting about our opts outs' would get my full support.
That's not correct, Tooting. The figure excludes Turkey. This, from the BBC website: "A document from Vote Leave says the EU's commitment to the free movement of people and the UK's new National Living Wage mean net migration from the EU to the UK will be between 170,000 and 430,000 a year - adding between 2.58m and 5.23m people to the UK population by 2030." At the moment, we're taking in net, one million immigrants every three years. So if that continues, it's 5 million more people on this small, densely populated island by 2030. But the rate of immigration is going UP, so Gove could well have underestimated the total by 2030 if we stay in the EU and continue to have no control over free movement immigration.
Your net figure include more than 50% non EU migrants. From the stuff in italics, is the Brexit campaign against the Living (sic) Wage?
The Brexit campaign recognises the huge draw of the Living Wage to immigrants from, particularly, Romania and Bulgaria. Recently, more have come from these two countries than any other EU country. Brexit would place immigration control back where it belongs, with the UK Parliament.
That's a great post. I hope you keep in posting on this thread, you express much of what I think far more eloquently than I could, even with more time. I'd lack to add on Security that leading Security Service leaders have confirmed a EU Exit will cut a very important flow of intelligence data from/to our fellow EU members. There is no given that this will be fully or adequately replaced if we leave, leaving us far more exposed to terror attack than today. I was surprised to hear this as I guessed such data would be Service to Service and within NATO, but a lot is exchanged within the EU apparently. On a larger scale a British exit could readily kick start a break up of the EU placing the peaceful existence we have enjoyed in the EU area since WW2 under threat especially from other countries close to or having, far right Nationalist governments. I fully agree with your last paragraph too. The UK is a big important country in Europe and we should be in there with Germany and France driving it the way our Government want, not whining on the sidelines when we don't get exactly what we want all the time.
Sorry, BD, started reading and choked on your first paragraph. You really are living in Elizabethan times if you think trade will be beads and trinkets exchanging with the old Empire. Nearly 80% of UK exports are services. Banking, investment, the Stock Exchange, law firms, accountancy firms etc. You appear not to recognise this. London is the most important financial centre in the world. It's largely human expertise that makes it so, and it has taken centuries to evolve into what it is today. In worldwide commerce, English law and the English jurisdiction rule supreme.
I agree with you about this goldie. But Why risk london's position with a Brexit. Frankfurt and Paris would love our business. This is one of the main reasons to remain for me. Some bullshit sound bite from Boris about "the city of London thriving outside" wouldn't convince a four year old. It's why the clown was for remain when he was London mayor for starters.
The city arguments are the most perverse from Brexiters. Of course our financial sector would face stiffer competition if we left the EU, there would be no one lobbying on its behalf within the beast. And I love the way that the Brexiters go on about protecting the City and how great it is and how much it contributes (did you know we have the 5th biggest Economy in the world by the way? But we are only the 11th biggest trading nation) and then slag off any City institution that says Brexit will cost us. I would be quite happy to see how great the Finacial Services sector is in the real world of capitalism, without protection. If it's really that great it will be fine, right?
There's no evidence that these financial institutions will pick up sticks and move, Tooting. Look at HSBC which, since it has its origins in the Far East, might well have gone back to Hong Kong. It threatened to leave London, but after due consideration, decided not stay, Brexit or not. Why? Because everything is in place in London to make it a brilliant place to do business in. As a businessman in a competitive market, you need to be where the competition is. The "Square Mile" has everything that finance and commerce needs, and this just cannot be replicated in another part of the world overnight. Paris is a lovely place to take your girlfriend in Spring, but just doesn't have the make-up or resources for financial business like London. Frankfurt is like Paris, but not such a nice place to take your girlfriend. In London, English law applies - not some unexpected continental law or obscure state law of New York. English law is THE law of contract. Experienced and trusted English courts will dispense justice when there's a dispute. The top lawyers and accountants in the world will be working in the next building in Canary Wharf when a CEO needs consultation. The Stock Market provides reliable, well tested services and the stockbrokers have centuries of experience. Everything about The City of London is geared to smooth running of these big financial institutions. London also has close working and historical links with important offshore jurisdictions like Bermuda and the Cayman Islands - important in the insurance industry. And where is the worldwide insurance centre? It is Lloyds of London with centuries of experience and goodwill particularly in shipping and latterly aviation. And remember too, human nature. Top bankers are wealthy people who want to enjoy life. London offers more in terms of history, culture, theatre, opera, concerts, restaurants, sporting venues etc than anywhere else in the world. New York comes close in certain artistic culture but lacks the magic of history somehow. In the event of Brexit, these major institutions will continue to do business all over the world from their London (and New York) offices. Europe is still a train or a plane ride away. But they just will not uproot themselves and relocate in a waste land in Frankfurt. Rule Britannia : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...York-as-the-worlds-best-financial-centre.html
So why do you whine on about the Eurozone taking business from the city? And let's remember that these are the ****s who gave us the 2008 recession. Don't bank on HSBC (pun intended). They ran away from Shanghai, they ran away from Hong Kong (I lived there at the time, they weren't popular). I know you wrote that crap to get a rise Goldie, but I sometimes wonder whether when you go abroad, if you ever do, you take your own food and shout to make yourself understood. Here's something which will help you choose where to go on your next works outing, somewhere most people would be quite happy to see the back of us. As a former colony Cyprus knows us best and likes us least.
I never whine, Stan. But the one thing that would affect London is if we were in an organisation dominated by 26 Euro countries that needed to take market share for its own financial centre, probably Frankfurt. I've travelled the world many times over, and your inference that I only eat British food and shout at foreigners is the kind of **** racist slur we get from the frustrated left when they've lost the argument. You disappoint me.
Lighten up, you old tart. I said I thought your post was a wind up, and there is no racism implied in a stereotype of the British abroad. Bit touchy tonight?
