The O'Briens
- Thread starter Ardent1965
- Start date
-
Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
-
Your case would be thrown out due to lack of any real evidence (check Dan Starkey's list of the stable's achievements which he posted not that long ago; a truly impressive historical summary). There's not a trainer in the world who hasn't had the occasional debacle, and Saturday's was surely not one? Camelot was not good enough on the day, and, although the ride given was poor, the horse had the chance to win had he gone through with his effort?
Not having a crack at AOB here, but I often wonder whether a whole host of people could actually do his type of job. I see heaps of riders who seem just as good as most of the top flight riders, who have to struggle for a living, and I think to myself, what if he rode for Coolmore or Godolphin? Same thing with trainers. And it isn't just racing either, how many football players never get a real chance? Each of us who follow a team can readily point to a player in our favourite team and say, "He'd make a fist of it if he had the chance."
There can be no doubting that AOB had a serious leg up in the industry, and I'm not for a second saying that he's not a great trainer, but he was born to, and has travelled in the right circles, which has made life a lot easier for him. His son is another case in point. A very talented man in the plate, but how many other riders in the UK, who are his equal or better, must feel that they were born on the wrong side of the tracks?
There can be no doubting that AOB had a serious leg up in the industry, and I'm not for a second saying that he's not a great trainer, but he was born to, and has travelled in the right circles, which has made life a lot easier for him. His son is another case in point. A very talented man in the plate, but how many other riders in the UK, who are his equal or better, must feel that they were born on the wrong side of the tracks?
Look at the jockeys who have had the Ballydoyle job in recent seasons, none of them have been flawless. There's a nice article on Wikipedia about Ballydoyle which also mentions the stable jockey theme frequently. Here a few quotes:
"2004 Proved to be a disappointing year for O'Brien. It started off with the removal of Michael Kinane as stable jockey. Kinane was replaced by the young Jamie Spencer who had developed a good reputation riding in the UK. However the year ultimately proved disappointing on the track. Spencer was replaced after a string of self confessed mistakes on Powerscourt in the Arlington Million and on the same horse again in the Breeders' Cup Turf."
"Aidan finished the season (2006) with prizemoney of over â¬6.5m in Ireland and Great Britain. The season was marked however by the emerging race fixing allegations involving stable jockey Kieren Fallon..................... Fallon's problems were further compounded when on 29 November 2006 the French racing authority France Galop suspended Fallon for six months after he tested positive for a metabolite of a banned substance."
2008 was a stellar year with 23 Group 1 wins, Johnny Murtagh being the stable jockey. He lasted 3 seasons before quitting at the end of the 2010 season but it is fair to say he did most of the steering in the best patch Ballydoyle has enjoyed to date. 2011 saw Ballydoyle elect to have no stable jockey before Joseph got the job this season.
Criticism of Joseph for Saturday's ride on Camelot is unfair IMHO. He gave the horse every chance to win but Camelot was not able to match the acceleration shown by Encke, who for me must go down as the most unfortunate classic winner in recent years, given that his excellent victory will forever be overshadowed by the failure of Camelot.
The Ballydoyle stable jockey job has to be the highest-pressure job in racing. Every ride is scrutinsed in minute detail, every big-race runner (with the exception of pacemakers) is expected to win, the hype sorrounding their equine superstars means ulitmately that, if one gets beaten, excuses need to be found and the jockey is often a soft target.
"2004 Proved to be a disappointing year for O'Brien. It started off with the removal of Michael Kinane as stable jockey. Kinane was replaced by the young Jamie Spencer who had developed a good reputation riding in the UK. However the year ultimately proved disappointing on the track. Spencer was replaced after a string of self confessed mistakes on Powerscourt in the Arlington Million and on the same horse again in the Breeders' Cup Turf."
"Aidan finished the season (2006) with prizemoney of over â¬6.5m in Ireland and Great Britain. The season was marked however by the emerging race fixing allegations involving stable jockey Kieren Fallon..................... Fallon's problems were further compounded when on 29 November 2006 the French racing authority France Galop suspended Fallon for six months after he tested positive for a metabolite of a banned substance."
2008 was a stellar year with 23 Group 1 wins, Johnny Murtagh being the stable jockey. He lasted 3 seasons before quitting at the end of the 2010 season but it is fair to say he did most of the steering in the best patch Ballydoyle has enjoyed to date. 2011 saw Ballydoyle elect to have no stable jockey before Joseph got the job this season.
Criticism of Joseph for Saturday's ride on Camelot is unfair IMHO. He gave the horse every chance to win but Camelot was not able to match the acceleration shown by Encke, who for me must go down as the most unfortunate classic winner in recent years, given that his excellent victory will forever be overshadowed by the failure of Camelot.
The Ballydoyle stable jockey job has to be the highest-pressure job in racing. Every ride is scrutinsed in minute detail, every big-race runner (with the exception of pacemakers) is expected to win, the hype sorrounding their equine superstars means ulitmately that, if one gets beaten, excuses need to be found and the jockey is often a soft target.
In my opinion Camelot did not look the same horse...so impressive in the guineas and Derby earlier I wonder what damage the Irish done. Not a surprise this to me this. SNA terribly campaigned. Ask the Australians opinion.
All this standing up for AOB is getting to me now. I tried to keep out of the previous debate but I'm afraid I have no respect for the man as far as horses are concerned. He is driven more by money than by the welfare of horses. If anyone thinks he has any feelings for horses maybe they should speak to Kieran Fallon and Mick Kinane (I haven't by the way but I would love to hear what they have to say - in private). Personally, I fear that all may not be well with Camelot. He showed signs of discomfort early on in the race and maybe he should not have run. But AOB wouldn't take a horse out of a major race if he could help it. If a vet trots up the horse and says it isn't lame the horse will run, regardless of what the jockey has felt and recommended. Time will tell with Camelot but poor George Washington and Horatio Nelson weren't so lucky.
Now I've said it. Sorry folks but AOB's name is mud in our house. **** the stats.
Now I've said it. Sorry folks but AOB's name is mud in our house. **** the stats.
Ballydoyle is certainly becoming a polarising organisation and i am not entirely sure why, but what is for sure is it does make people become very emotive. I think in the beginning most people were very supportive of Ballydoyle/ Coolmoore due to the fact that they broke a monopoly of Godolphin in the sales ring, which also manifested on the race course to a large extent as well. I am not sure what caused it or when this support wained and it may just have been that they through no fault of their own actually occupied the same position that they userped Godolphin from and became the big juggernaut and i think there is something within us that likes those organisations to not have everything to themselves. If we take an F.A cup tie between a premiership big gun and a league one side i think many of the neutrals will be rooting for the smaller side.
As for opinion i feel Aiden O'Brian is a very sincere man but has attracted some reasonable criticism by allowing himself to become the PR arm at the track for Coolmoore rather than speaking as the trainer alone. This has given rise to the ridicule of Aidens latest "best we have ever had" . He did himself no favours making Camalot the latest to be bestowed with this claim as racegoers do not need be too old to remember Monteju, Gallilao, George Washington etc and so they simply were not buying it in general. I think the appointment of Joseph to Stable Jockey also caused a few eyebrows to be raised as when it was muted you would have thought someone would say is this Jockey the best available? as this is what Ballydoyle should always employ, and again no one could have looked you in the eye and said yes. I know i am repeating myself but i feel Joseph should be cut some slack as it's not his fault as he is being expected to be a jockey at the top of his game at the age of 19, he should be still able to learn his trade as 2nd or 3rd jockey which would still give him good horses but zero pressure.
I think what Aiden O'Brian did by coming on TV after Camalots defeat at the weekend was very commendable and again a mark of a decent man. Ultimately i do not think too much should be made of Camalots defeat as it was not as unimaginable as some commentators would have had you believe, which was highlighted on another thread last week when he's form was factually held up to the light rather than the hype. It really angered some posters and the 2 or 3 making the point of were at one point passed off as AOB haters which again displays how polarising Ballydoyle has become. I think however that most on here are no such thing and it must be possible to make a point that can be backed up reasonably with fact without it being prejudice. On reflection i would definately be of the opinion that the sport would be poorer without AOB and Coolmoore as it would be without Godolphin but these organisations are not beyond criticism.
As for opinion i feel Aiden O'Brian is a very sincere man but has attracted some reasonable criticism by allowing himself to become the PR arm at the track for Coolmoore rather than speaking as the trainer alone. This has given rise to the ridicule of Aidens latest "best we have ever had" . He did himself no favours making Camalot the latest to be bestowed with this claim as racegoers do not need be too old to remember Monteju, Gallilao, George Washington etc and so they simply were not buying it in general. I think the appointment of Joseph to Stable Jockey also caused a few eyebrows to be raised as when it was muted you would have thought someone would say is this Jockey the best available? as this is what Ballydoyle should always employ, and again no one could have looked you in the eye and said yes. I know i am repeating myself but i feel Joseph should be cut some slack as it's not his fault as he is being expected to be a jockey at the top of his game at the age of 19, he should be still able to learn his trade as 2nd or 3rd jockey which would still give him good horses but zero pressure.
I think what Aiden O'Brian did by coming on TV after Camalots defeat at the weekend was very commendable and again a mark of a decent man. Ultimately i do not think too much should be made of Camalots defeat as it was not as unimaginable as some commentators would have had you believe, which was highlighted on another thread last week when he's form was factually held up to the light rather than the hype. It really angered some posters and the 2 or 3 making the point of were at one point passed off as AOB haters which again displays how polarising Ballydoyle has become. I think however that most on here are no such thing and it must be possible to make a point that can be backed up reasonably with fact without it being prejudice. On reflection i would definately be of the opinion that the sport would be poorer without AOB and Coolmoore as it would be without Godolphin but these organisations are not beyond criticism.
Absolute nonsense of the highest order Ron.
So you are telling me the decision to bring back George Washington was Aidan O'Briens ? not once in your rant did you mention the owners. Yeah I am sure Aidan was just happy to see George Washington break down, because from what you have said you would think that was the case.
As for the Aussies who gives a **** (sorry Cyc
) talk about poorly campaigned So You Thinks previous connections tried to win a Melbourne Cup with him 2m on soft ground with that weight 
ohhh and he is unbeatable over 10f
So you are telling me the decision to bring back George Washington was Aidan O'Briens ? not once in your rant did you mention the owners. Yeah I am sure Aidan was just happy to see George Washington break down, because from what you have said you would think that was the case.
As for the Aussies who gives a **** (sorry Cyc
) talk about poorly campaigned So You Thinks previous connections tried to win a Melbourne Cup with him 2m on soft ground with that weight ohhh and he is unbeatable over 10f
I honestly said that all along after (and maybe before, not sure there) that particular MC (wish to hell I still had my posts), but that was a truly dreadful decision to run such a (then) very young horse first time over a distance of 2-miles on softish ground, and only three days after winning the Group 1 Mackinnon Stakes over 1m2f at the same track. Only the horse's class and courage saw him stagger in to 3rd place in that Melbourne Cup. Wonder it didn't sour him for ever. And they talk about O'Brien screwing So You Think up? Bollox, rubbish! Rant over...................
Timeform have Camelot running to a mark of 122 in the St Leger. Flat editor David Johnson: "Whilst connections continue to speak of Camelot in glowing terms, his form at present is that of just a high-class colt, one that will need to show improvement against his elders this autumn, or perhaps as a 4-y-o, if he's going to back up that faith on the track."
Just about sums it up ..............
Just about sums it up ..............
I think that does just about sum it up Oddie, very accurately.
This talk of him being a great was all hype which stems from Ballydoyle, they plant the seed and people jump onto it in the press and all of a sudden you have a wonder horse. The rule of not getting caught by hype is to just stick to what happens on course as the form book does not lie, it does throw up odd results, usually due to extremes of ground but any race watcher seeing a suspicious piece of form can usually identify the reason. I actually think he will prove himself better as a four year old and hope he gets the chance.
This talk of him being a great was all hype which stems from Ballydoyle, they plant the seed and people jump onto it in the press and all of a sudden you have a wonder horse. The rule of not getting caught by hype is to just stick to what happens on course as the form book does not lie, it does throw up odd results, usually due to extremes of ground but any race watcher seeing a suspicious piece of form can usually identify the reason. I actually think he will prove himself better as a four year old and hope he gets the chance.
The fact that the first 10f took 6 secs longer than last year should, I would have thought, favoured Camelot if there was any doubt about him staying. After the Epsom Derby he was 131p so he ran nowhere near to his ability. Early on in the St Leger he was carrying his head very low (sometimes an indication that something is hurting) and also looked uncomfortable. It is interesting that John Francome spotted this during the race and that very few other people did. It's also interesting, but not surprising, that Timeform and other "professional" analysts are oblivious to such things and only see the performance in terms of numbers (lengths, pounds) as though horses are machines, and are happy to churn out their mathematical conclusions and subjective judgements as to whether or not the horse stayed.
The horse ran below form for a reason. Maybe he was suffering from his run in unsuitable ground in the Irish Derby, maybe he had a minor injury we aren't aware of (yet). The jockey didn't help his cause but, as has been said, he had the time to get to the winner. But that last 4f was pretty quick and coming out of a pocket to build a challenge when the winner had flown maybe was a massive task and Camelot did well, in the circumstances, to get so close in the end.
It is very strange that there seems to be no news coming out of Ballydoyle and I don't know if that's good or bad news.
Full credit to AOB for being subjected to an interview that clearly was uncomfortable for him. I have never seen him so flustered.
I would be very surprised if we see Camelot again this year but, hopefully, he will be kept in training next year with the Arc as his main objective.
The horse ran below form for a reason. Maybe he was suffering from his run in unsuitable ground in the Irish Derby, maybe he had a minor injury we aren't aware of (yet). The jockey didn't help his cause but, as has been said, he had the time to get to the winner. But that last 4f was pretty quick and coming out of a pocket to build a challenge when the winner had flown maybe was a massive task and Camelot did well, in the circumstances, to get so close in the end.
It is very strange that there seems to be no news coming out of Ballydoyle and I don't know if that's good or bad news.
Full credit to AOB for being subjected to an interview that clearly was uncomfortable for him. I have never seen him so flustered.
I would be very surprised if we see Camelot again this year but, hopefully, he will be kept in training next year with the Arc as his main objective.
"He is driven more by money than by the welfare of horses. If anyone thinks he has any feelings for horses maybe they should speak to Kieran Fallon and Mick Kinane...."
Thats quite a contention Ron.
I feel you owe it to us and the man you have slandered to back up your allegations with something a little more evidence based.
Since you have the ear of Fallon and Kinane perhaps you could also enlighten us as to what they said re the abuser in question.
I'm actually staggered by your comment.
Thats quite a contention Ron.
I feel you owe it to us and the man you have slandered to back up your allegations with something a little more evidence based.
Since you have the ear of Fallon and Kinane perhaps you could also enlighten us as to what they said re the abuser in question.
I'm actually staggered by your comment.
We live in a world full of hype, and sport is a classic medium for it. It's sad but that's the way it is.
Yet the other side of the coin is that the greater the hype, the greater the ridicule from the cynical brigade.
Aidan O'Brien is hyped, owing to his profile, the top races he has won, and his powerful and wealthy connections.
Quite honestly, I really have no idea how good a trainer he is, although he did land the plum job at Ballydoyle after only 2 or 3 years as a small time trainer. Success may have come rather easily and therefore, when things go wrong in our hyped up world, the knockers are only too ready to stick the knife in.
His position, name, nationality, and stable location will always tend to evoke comparisons with his unrelated namesake, Vincent O'Brien. This is unfortunate. What Vincent O'Brien achieved as a relatively small National Hunt trainer stands alone in my view, and few trainers in history can hold a candle to it.
Personally, I'm not a fan of his. I don't like some of the things he says, and his practice of multiple Group entries, multiple single race runners, and pacemakers seems to make a mockery of his embarras de richesse.
However, that personal opinion is as far as it goes. In essence, I'm not qualified to rate him, despite my right to have an opinion.
As regards Camelot, he was undoubtedly hyped- partially because he won two Classics; partially as a result of Triple Crown aspirations; and partially down to his association with his trainer.
In my opinion, he turned in a decent performance to win the 2000 Guineas first time out; and he won a poor Epsom Derby, albeit without undue effort. He wasn't the first hot favourite to be turned over on Town Moor, and he won't be the last. Despite his breeding, 10 furlongs may be his best distance, but that may never be put to the test- he may well be whisked off to stud.
Yet the other side of the coin is that the greater the hype, the greater the ridicule from the cynical brigade.
Aidan O'Brien is hyped, owing to his profile, the top races he has won, and his powerful and wealthy connections.
Quite honestly, I really have no idea how good a trainer he is, although he did land the plum job at Ballydoyle after only 2 or 3 years as a small time trainer. Success may have come rather easily and therefore, when things go wrong in our hyped up world, the knockers are only too ready to stick the knife in.
His position, name, nationality, and stable location will always tend to evoke comparisons with his unrelated namesake, Vincent O'Brien. This is unfortunate. What Vincent O'Brien achieved as a relatively small National Hunt trainer stands alone in my view, and few trainers in history can hold a candle to it.
Personally, I'm not a fan of his. I don't like some of the things he says, and his practice of multiple Group entries, multiple single race runners, and pacemakers seems to make a mockery of his embarras de richesse.
However, that personal opinion is as far as it goes. In essence, I'm not qualified to rate him, despite my right to have an opinion.
As regards Camelot, he was undoubtedly hyped- partially because he won two Classics; partially as a result of Triple Crown aspirations; and partially down to his association with his trainer.
In my opinion, he turned in a decent performance to win the 2000 Guineas first time out; and he won a poor Epsom Derby, albeit without undue effort. He wasn't the first hot favourite to be turned over on Town Moor, and he won't be the last. Despite his breeding, 10 furlongs may be his best distance, but that may never be put to the test- he may well be whisked off to stud.
Most people love animals. Those who work in the racing industry, for the most part, love and respect the animals in their care, but this should not blind us to the ugliness that goes hand in hand with the devotion we see every day. Racing is a cold hard business. Oversupply is so rampant, that probably tens of thousands of these wonderful creatures, end up being slaughtered for consumption. I'm sickened by the destruction of a horse that comes a cropper during a race, yet I line up to watch the next event. And I tell myself that I'm a lover of horses.
The reason for the above rant, is to highlight the power of the monetary return, and the amount of self pleasure I get in return, over the welfare of the horse. I love my horse, but I'm willing to risk it's life because I love racing. Money talks loudly at the apex of the sport. AOB is probably doing the bidding of his masters, who are intent on a business practice that will hopefully see Ballydoyle continue to be a major player in the international scene. In regards to Camelot, it would seem that they took the punt on having a G1 winner at the mile and 14 furlongs, and blew it. It's all too easy to point the finger of blame at AOB and Ballydoyle, but for mine, they were caught between a rock and a hard place. They'd witnessed one of the all time greats burst onto the scene in the shape of Frankel, and had to try something special to raise Camelot's profile for breeding purposes. They really only had two options, the St Leger and the Arc. To me, the St Leger looked the softer option. Sure he has the extra couple of furlongs to cope with, but he also had a massive step down in class to compete against. And as Ron said, the slower pace should have played into his hands. So it was, Arc and top opposition over a preferred distance, or a much weaker lot over the extended trip. I can't blame them for the choice they made. If he couldn't win the Leger, what chance in the Arc?
I have a lot to say on Australian racing and the lead in races to the Melbourne Cup RV, but I'll leave that for another time.
The reason for the above rant, is to highlight the power of the monetary return, and the amount of self pleasure I get in return, over the welfare of the horse. I love my horse, but I'm willing to risk it's life because I love racing. Money talks loudly at the apex of the sport. AOB is probably doing the bidding of his masters, who are intent on a business practice that will hopefully see Ballydoyle continue to be a major player in the international scene. In regards to Camelot, it would seem that they took the punt on having a G1 winner at the mile and 14 furlongs, and blew it. It's all too easy to point the finger of blame at AOB and Ballydoyle, but for mine, they were caught between a rock and a hard place. They'd witnessed one of the all time greats burst onto the scene in the shape of Frankel, and had to try something special to raise Camelot's profile for breeding purposes. They really only had two options, the St Leger and the Arc. To me, the St Leger looked the softer option. Sure he has the extra couple of furlongs to cope with, but he also had a massive step down in class to compete against. And as Ron said, the slower pace should have played into his hands. So it was, Arc and top opposition over a preferred distance, or a much weaker lot over the extended trip. I can't blame them for the choice they made. If he couldn't win the Leger, what chance in the Arc?
I have a lot to say on Australian racing and the lead in races to the Melbourne Cup RV, but I'll leave that for another time.