The Media

[Christiansmith]

I disagree with that I'm afraid. You can't judge a whole performance from 2 minutes of football, but that's not what they did. They judged the whole match and used examples from the whole match to condense it into a 2 minute review. That's completely different and was a reasonable point to make. That on its own cannot be considered as anti-United imo.

The debate about possession football is a different one. There's possession football and then there's possession football. It's dangerous to bring up comparison with Barca bcos the minute anyone argues against it, THEY'RE the ones that are criticising bcos we're not Barcelona However, seeing as you've raised it - the way Barcelona played under Pep is different to the way United/Van Gaal plays it. Barcelona play probing pass and move football where they play their pretty triangles and manouvre the opposition using one touch passes, always looking to create space between the opposition's midfield and defence to run beyond. United are often forced to pass it around bcos the position of our players doesn't allow us to run beyond the opposition's midfield or defence. So what happens is players continuously come short to collect the ball which means they themselves leave a space and therefore lose the link up to players further forward. You'll also often see that this causes our players to take 2 or 3 touches of the ball as they weigh up their options. ALL of this slows down play and ends up being possession for possession's sake. This is a good example of how they are different (was looking for the Barca Chelsea semi in 2011 at SB but couldn't find it)

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Ofcourse they do slow the game down when they want to but even then they maintain the one-touch pass and move and you can see there's a purpose to what they're doing. There are also similarities to United - we press further up the pitch and that's great to see, but Barcelona will use that territorial advantage to attack, we use it to "keep possession for possession's sake" often losing said territorial advantage as we end up with the ball in our own half and the opposition re-organise and the moment is lost. Barcelona see a chink and they go forward.

I think that we are getting better, but it's still cumbersome for large parts of the game. And when pundits talk about seeing how we will fare against the better teams, I think what they're talking about is actually how this cumbersome possession football will fare against those teams rather than who is better.

Any one who says he loves possession football for possession's sake needs his head examining or is bloody lying.

I think there is method to the madness. LVG's possession IMO has 2 benefits:

1. Keeping the ball means you are in control and therefore the opposition is not attacking you and you are less likely to concede.

2. Keeping possession means you can probe and attack yourself should an opportunity presents itself.

This kind of football needs the right players. And discipline from every single player. You can't have 40 passes of the ball and then one player through indiscipline gives it away in a dangerous position. And you have to have that cutting edge which will reward that possession. There is no point passing50-60 passes if at the end of it there is not even an opportunity because there is no one good enough,

Barcelona is successful with it with the right players but even they can come a cropper occasionally as when they got thrashed by Bayern a few years ago in the CL semis.

I really think the first few months at United has made a big impression on LVG especially the Leicester and MK Dons matches. He has made up his mind that United would not play gung-ho football. Attrition will be the name of the game and in martial and Depay in attack and Bastian carrick Morgan in midfield He has the right players to do this. And to be fair we don't get the same trepidation on meeting top teams like we had with Moyes.

I accept that LVG use this way as the best way to stabilise the ship. It does not mean we will play like this for the next ten years - not even after he's left. The pundits criticising his every move have never given him any credit for anything good or positive. If it is good its happened by chance or what do you expect with £300m spent? If bad then he is bloody useless even with such a massive budget. He just can't win with these ****s.

 

[Christiansmith]

Yeh very true, but the problem is everything and everyone is unpredictable. And if we can improve so can a few of the others. Arsenal for example - we won, drew and lost against them last season. Chelsea beat us and drew against us last season but I'd fancy United to do better against them this season. City are totally unpredictable and also form goes out the window in the manchester derby. Then we have the likes of Spurs, Everton (and Swansea who we've played already) - these teams are looking decent as well. They will all be a real test for us while navigating the CL group games as well.

To be fair there is no team definitely better than us. Even City

So nothing to fear and anything is possible.

 

[Treble]

I think you're looking at the end result which is the Barca of 2011. That was a more advanced Barca which ironically started out from LVG days. IT started as a process which became a culture. That process is now what we have at United. We are far from the end product so we can't get ahead of ourselves. Essentially, then team is young and full of potentials which is solid foundation for the future.

I also disagree that it is possession play for the sake of possession as the pundits like to put it. The main goal of possession play is to increase efficiency and methodologically breakdown teams. It has made United far much more pleasing to watch for me as I've said before where each member of the team becomes more functional and they play more as a cohesive team than individuals. Even with Rooney's lack of form, the team continues to perform. If we had Martial from day one, we would have won more games with far more goals using this so called possession play.

I don't see the point of comparing to Barca if, given the evidence, we're saying "ah but Barca play with pace" or "it was a more advanced Barca". Even the Barca of 2008-09 was playing with more pace. It's clear whatever the reason we don't play like them so the comparison isn't a real one. The process may have started with Van Gaal but it was heavily influenced by Cruyff. In fact, if anything, the directness with the likes of Deco and Etoo meant Barca actually played with more pace in 2008-09 and as the so-called Trequartista developed, Barca's possession football and the pace of their play actually dropped. That's a reverse of what you're saying so once again I don't see the comparison. It's only after Pep left that Barcelona adapted again to 3 up front.

Also picking up on your earlier point about English teams in the Champions League. It's not as black and white as saying English teams fail bcos they play gung ho and tarring everything which isn't "possession football ala Barca" as gung ho. I'd ask the question what would you class Real Madrid as then? Or Bayern Munich when they won it, or AC Milan, or Inter, or even Chelsea or United when they won it. Those teams' possession football wasn't in the mould of ours at the moment BUT they still played possession football. Like I said earlier there's possession football, and then there's possession football. Things can't just be clumped into two groups. I'm all for possession football - I was one of the few on here that kept highlighting that as Moyes' biggest weakness and the evidence is still there on most of the match threads from that time when those who'd never heard of Van Gaal's style weren't even mentioning it. However, there's different styles of possession football. What Fergie realised is that English teams' gung ho attitude of "attack attack attack" without the foundation of a solid midfield and a well organised defence, was always going to get found out. That was a tactical change in thinking by him - he shifted his emphasis on building from the back BUT still attacking with pace going forward. When you look at United, Liverpool, Chelsea (and even Arsenal) when they were at their best and dominating in the Champions League, it was because of that.

One thing you and I agree on (and I don't hear many others say this so it is refreshing) is that United's football in Fergie's final 2/3 seasons was pretty turgid and unimaginative. It was bullish moreso than flair. There was little if any creativity in midfield and was part of the reason Scholes was brought out of retirement. We go the results but Fergie really was punching United above their weight. No games epitomise that more than playing Atletico Bilbao when they taught us a lesson in football and it was evident that we had to rebuild. RVP was just a sticking plaster and sadly for Moyes he bore the brunt of years of under-investment. We just have different tastes on how we want to see United play that's all I for one, will be massively disappointed if this is the future style of United's football. I know you enjoy it, but things will have to improve massively in this possession style of football (and I mean to Barca levels as they currently are NOT Pep 2011/12) for me to enjoy it. BTW given the choice would you prefer to watch us the way we played from 2006-2008 or now?

 

[Treble]

Any one who says he loves possession football for possession's sake needs his head examining or is bloody lying.

I think there is method to the madness. LVG's possession IMO has 2 benefits:

1. Keeping the ball means you are in control and therefore the opposition is not attacking you and you are less likely to concede.

2. Keeping possession means you can probe and attack yourself should an opportunity presents itself.

This kind of football needs the right players. And discipline from every single player. You can't have 40 passes of the ball and then one player through indiscipline gives it away in a dangerous position. And you have to have that cutting edge which will reward that possession. There is no point passing50-60 passes if at the end of it there is not even an opportunity because there is no one good enough,

Barcelona is successful with it with the right players but even they can come a cropper occasionally as when they got thrashed by Bayern a few years ago in the CL semis.

I really think the first few months at United has made a big impression on LVG especially the Leicester and MK Dons matches. He has made up his mind that United would not play gung-ho football. Attrition will be the name of the game and in martial and Depay in attack and Bastian carrick Morgan in midfield He has the right players to do this. And to be fair we don't get the same trepidation on meeting top teams like we had with Moyes.

I accept that LVG use this way as the best way to stabilise the ship. It does not mean we will play like this for the next ten years - not even after he's left. The pundits criticising his every move have never given him any credit for anything good or positive. If it is good its happened by chance or what do you expect with £300m spent? If bad then he is bloody useless even with such a massive budget. He just can't win with these ****s.

Yeh I can see that. I'd add a third reason as well - to entranch the style in a team and group of players not used to it. And given time, as they master it, buy into it, he will adapt and evolve the style to become more cutting edge (or at least I hope )

 

[cytrax]

BTW given the choice would you prefer to watch us the way we played from 2006-2008 or now?

That was a totally different era which I thoroughly enjoyed. One key factor though... Ronaldo! You can't have a player like him in your time and not play that way. Fergie essentially built United around Ronaldo and Rooney. Then there was Tevez. We are talking about amazing skills back then. It really didn't matter how you played, those players could pull a rabbit out of hat. Once Tevez and Ronaldo left and Scholes retired, the creativity pretty much dried up culminating in the disaster we call the Moyes era. Mind you, I wouldn't trust Moyes with £500m. He simply lacked the imagination to rebuild United.

I think the foundation is now in place with the young squad of skillful players. If they can play the LVG way, then I can only imagine what that level of discipline would become in two years.

 

[Treble]

That was a totally different era which I thoroughly enjoyed. One key factor though... Ronaldo! You can't have a player like him in your time and not play that way. Fergie essentially built United around Ronaldo and Rooney. Then there was Tevez. We are talking about amazing skills back then. It really didn't matter how you played, those players could pull a rabbit out of hat. Once Tevez and Ronaldo left and Scholes retired, the creativity pretty much dried up culminating in the disaster we call the Moyes era. Mind you, I wouldn't trust Moyes with £500m. He simply lacked the imagination to rebuild United.

I think the foundation is now in place with the young squad of skillful players. If they can play the LVG way, then I can only imagine what that level of discipline would become in two years.

And don't forget Rio and Vidic... and Brown who shone at RB and Evra who was arguably the best LB around at that time. The defence is very underestimated from that period. How many cean sheets did we keep, and how many games did we win 1-0 in the CL iirc. It was a great football all round tbf.

 

[UnitedinRed]

And don't forget Rio and Vidic... and Brown who shone at RB and Evra who was arguably the best LB around at that time. The defence is very underestimated from that period. How many cean sheets did we keep, and how many games did we win 1-0 in the CL iirc. It was a great football all round tbf.

It was without question the best defence in football. I don't think anyone underestimated it. It was just that good.

 

[cytrax]

It was without question the best defence in football. I don't think anyone underestimated it. It was just that good.

Foregone conclusion, if you ask me. No point even bringing that up. And with Van Der Saar at the back!

 

[Red Hadron Collider]

Does anyone get feeling that they, the Media, rarely have anything positive to say about United? I was watching match of the day and the post match analysis sounded like we had just lost the game. You wouldn't even know that we scored three goals, completed more passes than anyone throughout the weekend (600), totally controlled the game and could have easily scored at least one more goal from Memphis.

I mean, few weeks ago, all the talks were about Van Gaal getting D+ rating with his summer transfers and City with A+, of course, and everyone predicting that United may not even get into the top four. Heck, they even have Liverpool glowing preference over United. There was also the Media crying over Pedro inspire despite the fact that we have too many players like him (Mata is better, btw).

Here we are after seven games with 16 points, albeit still very early days, and they are still talking trash about how poor United are. When do we ever get any credit?

Quite frankly, I'm becoming very tired of hearing about them not seeing the old Fergie United. For one, I completely enjoy watching United play now more than any other time since Ronaldo left and maybe RVP's first season with us. I particularly love how we control the games and the level of maturity and discipline in such a young team. We were lacking up front but Martial has added much needed edge that was missing.

I guess I just want to know that I'm not the only United fan that thinks we are miles better than we have been since the turn of this decade. Next week will be a good test for us, but I am definitely more hopeful for positive result if we continue this path. If we can get four points from the next two games, it would be further vindication of the new United they now love to hate!

You are poor mate, but so are the rest of us.