The EU debate - Part III

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Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
The fact people at a variety of levels are debating it, I'd say arguable is a reasonable comment.

I don't disagree with the abuse of Zionist etc, it does the same thing. Neither are productive in resolving the problem.
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People still debate whether the earth is flat!
Seriously - the problem with offender profiling is really obvious. Most people of whatever group you like to choose are not criminals. Therefore any state action that targets any group based on profiling will automatically mean that many innocent people are targeted. This is exactly the wrong way to encourage non-racist behaviour as it is divisive. I wouldn't mind betting that proportionally more GBH offences are committed by males taller than 6ft. But no-one would seriously propose that as a criterion for say a stop and search policy. But blacks are still subject to that sort of thing getting on for 50 years after it was identified as an issue. The only conceivable explanation is racism.
 
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Whiplash claims to be limited to a max £425

All thanks to Brexit*






* It has nothing to do with Brexit, but everything else is blamed on Brexit by snowflakes and cupcakes
 
PowerSpurs said:
People still debate whether the earth is flat!
Seriously - the problem with offender profiling is really obvious. Most people of whatever group you like to choose are not criminals. Therefore any state action that targets any group based on profiling will automatically mean that many innocent people are targeted. This is exactly the wrong way to encourage non-racist behaviour as it is divisive. I wouldn't mind betting that proportionally more GBH offences are committed by males taller than 6ft. But no-one would seriously propose that as a criterion for say a stop and search policy. But blacks are still subject to that sort of thing getting on for 50 years after it was identified as an issue. The only conceivable explanation is racism.
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It is still debatable, and at a level beyond flat earth. There are plenty of blacks disagreeing with your version. It's irrelevant, as it is still one issue that may or maybe not be described as racist.

In fact, it supports the actual discussion, as if the only argument offered by either side was 'it's racist' it would add zero to the discussion and any potential solutions.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
It is still debatable, and at a level beyond flat earth. There are plenty of blacks disagreeing with your version. It's irrelevant, as it is still one issue that may or maybe not be described as racist.

In fact, it supports the actual discussion, as if the only argument offered by either side was 'it's racist' it would add zero to the discussion and any potential solutions.
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Why does the skin-colour of people 'disagreeing' with me matter? If anything I've said is wrong you could help the debate by pointing it out. And if there is no reason other than racism for the stop and search outcomes then the solution is rather obvious.
 
PowerSpurs said:
Why does the skin-colour of people 'disagreeing' with me matter? If anything I've said is wrong you could help the debate by pointing it out. And if there is no reason other than racism for the stop and search outcomes then the solution is rather obvious.
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I'd say the skin colour was relevant, given they're experiencing the issues we're talking about.

The stop and search isn't something to drag this board in to. You're using it as an example and actually supporting the claim that simply calling 'racist' doesn't add anything to a discussion nor push for a solution.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
I'd say the skin colour was relevant, given they're experiencing the issues we're talking about.

The stop and search isn't something to drag this board in to. You're using it as an example and actually supporting the claim that simply calling 'racist' doesn't add anything to a discussion nor push for a solution.
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I'm not 'calling something racist' I'm using an example whose only plausible explanation is racism. The solution is simple - stop employing people as Police Officers if they exhibit racist behaviours. This was a known issue when I was a teenager and if it had been solved then we would have much fewer issues with race relations. The reason it is relevant is that racism clearly affects some people's attitudes to the EU.
 
PowerSpurs said:
I'm not 'calling something racist' I'm using an example whose only plausible explanation is racism. The solution is simple - stop employing people as Police Officers if they exhibit racist behaviours. This was a known issue when I was a teenager and if it had been solved then we would have much fewer issues with race relations. The reason it is relevant is that racism clearly affects some people's attitudes to the EU.
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And I'm saying that claiming it's the only plausible explanation, is simply crying racism and not a productive way to resolve divisions or crime. A flaw in your argument is that many of the Police Officers are themselves, black.

It's an example of shouting "racist" stifling further discussion.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
I'd say the skin colour was relevant, given they're experiencing the issues we're talking about.
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It's a huge error to think that people who experience things are best placed to understand them. You wouldn't suggest that the views say of the unemployed should be more relevant to policies on employment
 
PowerSpurs said:
It's a huge error to think that people who experience things are best placed to understand them. You wouldn't suggest that the views say of the unemployed should be more relevant to policies on employment
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So, white folk know better than blacks? People involved should have their opinions ignored?
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
And I'm saying that claiming it's the only plausible explanation, is simply crying racism and not a productive way to resolve divisions or crime. A flaw in your argument is that many of the Police Officers are themselves, black.

It's an example of shouting "racist" stifling further discussion.
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Its been being discussed for my whole lifetime, nothing is being stifled. What we need is action to stop it not further delays.
 
PowerSpurs said:
Its been being discussed for my whole lifetime, nothing is being stifled. What we need is action to stop it not further delays.
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The fact it's gone on so long implies that there is a discussion to be had, and that their are hurdles. One of which is the repeated assumption that it's automatically racist.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
So, white folk know better than blacks? People involved should have their opinions ignored?
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No and no. But people's opinions shouldn't count for much anyway. We just need to analyse the facts, work out the solutions and implement them. That's what people on the left generally try to do. The right are so worried about change they simply argue against it - that's what Conservative means
 
PowerSpurs said:
No and no. But people's opinions shouldn't count for much anyway. We just need to analyse the facts, work out the solutions and implement them. That's what people on the left generally try to do. The right are so worried about change they simply argue against it - that's what Conservative means
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PowerSpurs said:
It really doesn't. The hurdle is that many people ARE racist and that is the only thing stopping a solution.
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The last two big elections, brexit and the US, were all about a change away from the way things have been run, including people wanting to stop the fascist left thought Police dictating what can and can't be said and stifling discussions. It simply creates a victim mentality and has held us back.

Simply calling 'racist' doesn't work anymore. It needs a deeper reasoning and explanation, and to be applied uniformly.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
The last two big elections, brexit and the US, were all about a change away from the way things have been run, including people wanting to stop the fascist left thought Police dictating what can and can't be said and stifling discussions. It simply creates a victim mentality and has held us back.

Simply calling 'racist' doesn't work anymore. It needs a deeper reasoning and explanation, and to be applied uniformly.
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The last two big elections have been mainly about right wing lies about what is happening being over-represented in the media and scaring people into rejecting further progress. No discussions have been stifled, but it is a problem when people get told that their views have not been implemented because they are victims of a conspiracy rather than because they have been investigated fully but implementing them would make matters worse. I'm very happy to have things applied uniformly. If stop and search had simply been banned 50 years ago then we would have much better race relations now.
 
PowerSpurs said:
The last two big elections have been mainly about right wing lies about what is happening being over-represented in the media and scaring people into rejecting further progress. No discussions have been stifled, but it is a problem when people get told that their views have not been implemented because they are victims of a conspiracy rather than because they have been investigated fully but implementing them would make matters worse. I'm very happy to have things applied uniformly. If stop and search had simply been banned 50 years ago then we would have much better race relations now.
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I think you're helping my point more than your own. Brexit and Trump were a rejection of the philosophies you project.

Simply shouting 'racist' resolves nothing.

The desire to label and pigeonhole is divisive. We're not black or white, Afrocaribean or British Asians. We're either British or not British.

A clear set of agreed values on what British means, with a uniform application is better than the erosion of culture and values that has been occurring. It doesn't mean other cultures can't be celebrated and respected.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
I think you're helping my point more than your own. Brexit and Trump were a rejection of the philosophies you project.

Simply shouting 'racist' resolves nothing.

The desire to label and pigeonhole is divisive. We're not black or white, Afrocaribean or British Asians. We're either British or not British.

A clear set of agreed values on what British means, with a uniform application is better than the erosion of culture and values that has been occurring. It doesn't mean other cultures can't be celebrated and respected.
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Then you don't understand the point I'm making.
It isn't labelling that is the problem it is people's behaviour.
One of the main distinguishing features of British culture from most other countries is the aversion we have to spot checks on ID. I think this is great as it sets a limit on the power of the state. But we've let the police apply this non-uniformly on the basis or race for decades. So we've let our innate racism undermine one of our own cultural strengths. When I was young, policeman on the beat were seen by most as friends who could help you when needed but that culture has been more or less destroyed by their own behaviour.
Any erosion of culture has been due to not applying it to all, not by other cultures being adopted.
 
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